Over the top - Is there one thing you can do to make it impossible?

[pnearn]

Re: Over the top - Is there one thing you can do to make it impossible?

I was speaking to the pro at my club last night about this and he gave me an interesting insight. I've also got another good drill which I sometimes use and have posted here before

In his view most golfers have read or heard that the swing path is an inclined plane and theyneeds to swing in to out. So they try and steer their hands and arms down this inside path. However this will never work, it's physically impossible and if players stubbornly think they can make it happen, they will always struggle. On the DS you immediately open up the shoulders and drive the lead shoulder and often lead hip laterally, thinking the club will track in a straight line and make the ball go straight. What actually happens is that your trail arm and shoulder immediately come over the plane. You are over the top. The brain will do whatever it can to recover and if you manage to square the face you will pull. Else you will slice

The drill my pro gives people is to place a club across your hips and make an imaginary backswing/coil with your shoulders. Now imagine you are stood inside a big clock face where the target is at 9am and your feet are pointing forwards towards 12am. See how at the top of this backswing the club shaft (still laying across your hips) is pointing somwehere between 10-11am?

Now as you start the downswing bump the hips along that same line. That is bump your left hip towards that 10-11am so that the shaft stays on that same angle. You will immediately notice your hips start rotating quickly and the shoulders stay back. You also have a good weight transfer. What a lot of people do is bump that shaft towards 9am or even worse 8am which cause the shoulders to spin out. Often this is because the arms are being thrown forward - out and over. The hips have to clear too early

Then try the same feeling in a real swing holding the club and see how that bump to right field shallows the club. From there you can just swing hard through the ball or let the pulling motion whip your arms through

I think this is a drill Jim Mclean uses too

Mariner, give that a bash and let me know if it helps?

[pnearn]

Re: Over the top - Is there one thing you can do to make it impossible?

As an aside look at the middle picture of Luke Donald here

http://content-golf.live.advance.net...onaldswing.jpg

He has pushed his hips hard on that right field line and look at the spine tilt he creates at impact as his upper body is left behind. Most OTT'ers at impact have the right shoulder coming right around and dont have that pronouned lean away at impact. If you can feel that real lean as the left hip goes up and around and the trail shoulder goes down (rather than around) then youre on the way

[mariner]

Re: Over the top - Is there one thing you can do to make it impossible?

Brilliant - that is EXACTLY what I've spent my entire golfing life attempting to do, force it down the line, exactly what you described post before last.
Why didn't any of the pro's I've had lessons from know about this move?
Can't wait to get down the range and try it this afternoon!

[BrianW]

Re: Over the top - Is there one thing you can do to make it impossible?

As an aside look at the middle picture of Luke Donald here

http://content-golf.live.advance.net...onaldswing.jpg

He has pushed his hips hard on that right field line and look at the spine tilt he creates at impact as his upper body is left behind. Most OTT'ers at impact have the right shoulder coming right around and dont have that pronouned lean away at impact. If you can feel that real lean as the left hip goes up and around and the trail shoulder goes down (rather than around) then youre on the way

Great advice! This is exactly what I was taught, let your right shoulder drop and stay just behind the ball at impact and during the follow through, this will help retain your correct spine angle and stop you heaving your shoulders arms and club out of swing plane.

Brian

[Al56]

Re: Over the top - Is there one thing you can do to make it impossible?

Very nice pnearn. Makes great sense once it's described that way (thanks for taking the time to explain). Will definitely be trying it. Cheers!

[jambalaya]

Re: Over the top - Is there one thing you can do to make it impossible?

I occassionally suffer from this. My shots head towards 11 o'clock instead of 12 o'clock and my divots point slightly left.

My over-the-top happens when my lower body movements are performed slower than my upper body movements.

My solution:
Make sure that my entire right side moves in a synchronized manner.
Try to perform all of the following movements at the same time:
- bring right elbow back to the front of your torso somewhere above your right hip. The right elbow doesn't need to touch the body.
- turn shoulders back to square
- turn hips to open position. It's ok to be more aggressive with the hip turn for as long as your right elbow doesn't get stuck behind and for as long as your head stays steady.
* turning should be done around your left side (similar to how a door swings on its hinges)
- move right knee towards the target
- lift the right heel

No offense, this may work, but there is no way a human being can think of this many things in a golf swing. We need at most two things to think about and preferably one main thought in my opinion. I have had a big problem with coming outside-in and got some good advise via a lesson yesterday that has really helped out. Actually reinforced on what I was already working.

The key here is that you have to come from the inside with the club head. The path of the club head has to start, on the downswing, on a line whereby it is basically heading towards the right rough (right handers) and as you turn the club head squares to the ball. Now don't line up to the right. Line up with the target just as you always do. As you turn, the club head will square up to the target line with which you've lined up. Pick a tree or other target to your right about 30 degrees and swing to the ball on that line after you get to the top. In order to do this you really have to drop the club down close to your body.

If you find after this that you are not bringing the club quite square, a rotation of the wrists may be necessary. But in any case, you have to find a thought, a single thought preferrably that reinforces coming from the inside on the downswing. Bringing the club inside on the backswing won't do the trick.

[jambalaya]

Re: Over the top - Is there one thing you can do to make it impossible?

Wierd? I just got an E-mail notification that pnearn posted the following but I don't see it on this thread:

OK, so my theory (rightly or wrongly) is that this all about connection. Keep the arms as connected to the body as you can and you will find it hard to come OTT as the body unwinds. Let the arms fly out from the body and they get thrown out (either by a conscious action as you start down or by the right shoulder being thrown forwards)

Try setting up like Hogan/Ballard, with your upper arms pinned tight to the chest and elbows pointing at the hips. Get good posture with a bend from the hips and head up. Better players need to have a slight softness in the right elbow but stick with the concept first. Get 60% of your weight on your right side

By the way I was hitting my 7-iron 170 yards yesterday which is damn good for me mainly by getting the club head back on an inside path. I was making contact with my driver like never before. I remarked to the pro that I was beginning to wonder if the club head was actually connected to the shaft of the club I was hitting it so poorly before.

Now from here simply use the palm of the left hand to push the club away low to the ground whilst (and heres the key) ensuring those upper arms never leave the chest until the right arm disconnects very late on. Almost like you have a tube tied around your body across your elbows so that only you lower arms (forearms) can move.

For those who have had an armsy disconnected swing this will feel way more compact and you will sense the right elbow breaking much earlier

My own opinion - for now forget wrist cupping or anything like that as the left hand pushing back the club cups the left wrist naturally anway

At the top you will probably see how the right elbow is closer into your body and pointing straight down. That should mean it will be much easier to get it down into your right hip quickly on the downswing.

On the way down you can try a few things and see what works best

1. Pull the club straight down keeping your back to the target
2. Bump the hips laterally and feel the left hip pull the left arm

Whichever one you do, because the right elbow is much closer to the right side it's going to be able to shallow the club a lot quicker

Once you get the concept try swinging at a good tempo so you get that natural rebound from the top

I was interested in it because pnearn says what I did in a different manner about what to think about on the way down. If you pull the club straight down with your back to the target you are getting the club head on the path that I was talking about. You almost have to bump your hips to get them out of the way of the club coming on the inside path.

By the way, I was hitting my 7-iron 170 yards yesterday which is damn good for me. I was also connecting with my driver like never before all because I was able to get the club on an inside path again. I remarked to the pro that I was wondering whether the club head was actually attached to the shaft before the improvement.

[gark]

Re: Over the top - Is there one thing you can do to make it impossible?

No offense, this may work, but there is no way a human being can think of this many things in a golf swing. We need at most two things to think about and preferably one main thought in my opinion.

No offense taken but you obviously misunderstood my advice. I was just describing, in parts, what one can do to synchronize the body (upper and lower) on the downswing. I could have easily just said 'Fix the o-t-p problem by synchronizing the downswing' but this simplistic and vague advice will not help most people.

Just because I gave a detailed description doesn't mean you have to think of all of these thnigs during the actual swing. That's not the way to do it.
That's what practice is for -- repetion until it becomes part of your swing so you don't have to consciously think of the parts during the actual swing.

[pnearn]

Re: Over the top - Is there one thing you can do to make it impossible?

Well I hope the advice works.. like all things try it slowly first and see how you get on

One other thing to note. I find that cross lateral hip move much much easier when I have real flex in my knees. For someone who's quite tall (6'1), I used to stand really tall to the ball with straight legs and a lot of bend from the waist. Now I bend less from the waist and lower myself down to the ball by flexing my knees. Really gets you in a lower and more stable position. Knee caps over the toenails. Sitting on the bar stool. Weight in the centre of your feet

To feel it stand straight up with no flex in the kness and bend from the waist until your spine is at an angle of say 1pm on a clock face (i.e not straight and not too bent). Now try almost sitting down and you will see your knees come out towards your feet. Do this until the knee caps are over the toes. In a mirror you will see that your shoulder blades, kneecaps and feet are all in line. My bet is you will feel really 'sat down' or lower but just try a few swings this way trying to keep that level of knee flex and then making that hip move

Helps keep the trail knee flexed in the backswing, means more coil and gives you way more stablity to make that first move down. It will feel weird to start with, like youre very low down, but try it and see

[pnearn]

Re: Over the top - Is there one thing you can do to make it impossible?

Mariner

How did you get on?

[gman4500]

Re: Over the top - Is there one thing you can do to make it impossible?

What works best for me is start downswing by rotating left knee cap to the left like Davis Love. Also, with driver keep head behind the ball thru impact and with irons keep head centered over the ball thru out the swing.

[mariner]

Re: Over the top - Is there one thing you can do to make it impossible?

Mariner

How did you get on?

Great on the range, useless on the course.

[jambalaya]

Re: Over the top - Is there one thing you can do to make it impossible?

I was speaking to the pro at my club last night about this and he gave me an interesting insight. I've also got another good drill which I sometimes use and have posted here before

In his view most golfers have read or heard that the swing path is an inclined plane and theyneeds to swing in to out. So they try and steer their hands and arms down this inside path. However this will never work, it's physically impossible and if players stubbornly think they can make it happen, they will always struggle. On the DS you immediately open up the shoulders and drive the lead shoulder and often lead hip laterally, thinking the club will track in a straight line and make the ball go straight. What actually happens is that your trail arm and shoulder immediately come over the plane. You are over the top. The brain will do whatever it can to recover and if you manage to square the face you will pull. Else you will slice

The drill my pro gives people is to place a club across your hips and make an imaginary backswing/coil with your shoulders. Now imagine you are stood inside a big clock face where the target is at 9am and your feet are pointing forwards towards 12am. See how at the top of this backswing the club shaft (still laying across your hips) is pointing somwehere between 10-11am?

Now as you start the downswing bump the hips along that same line. That is bump your left hip towards that 10-11am so that the shaft stays on that same angle. You will immediately notice your hips start rotating quickly and the shoulders stay back. You also have a good weight transfer. What a lot of people do is bump that shaft towards 9am or even worse 8am which cause the shoulders to spin out. Often this is because the arms are being thrown forward - out and over. The hips have to clear too early

Then try the same feeling in a real swing holding the club and see how that bump to right field shallows the club. From there you can just swing hard through the ball or let the pulling motion whip your arms through

I think this is a drill Jim Mclean uses too

Mariner, give that a bash and let me know if it helps?

I like this explanation too. This is what I am practicing right now with my down swing. I can do it but not consistently yet. The improvement in ball contact has been dramatic for me, especially with my driver. I suggest everyone practice this move if you feel you are having trouble with an outside-in swing path. What my pro told me was to pick out a target at 10 or 11 o'clock and try to hit the ball there to get a feel. He is all about the path of the club head rather than thinking about hip bumps and other thoughts. He says if you think about the path of the club head and swing the club head on the path your body will make the rest of the moves without thinking much. I don't completely agree with that but it reinforces what I am trying to do.

[Denmark]

Re: Over the top - Is there one thing you can do to make it impossible?

Hi Brian, Thanks for the video link. It is frustrating to have the OTT coming into the golf swing and I find it so helpful to watch a video showing the correct way. It is easier than trying to read instructions. Thanks again....from an oldie

[pnearn]

Re: Over the top - Is there one thing you can do to make it impossible?

Great on the range, useless on the course.

Probably a mental thing on the course then .. afraid to just let it happen perhaps .. keep at it though .. get it grooved in and then you'll be able to turst it on game day