Expert opinions required (non experts also welcome !)

[qassim]

Technical question for you guys.

I have had some conflicting advice on the take away/backwsing which I'd like your thoughts on.

When I first started playing (about 18 months ago) I had lessons and was told that I should take club away until it was parallel to the ground (i.e. 3 o'clock position) with the toe of the club pointing directly upwards and then cock the wrists and then simply complete the shoulder turn. I've had success with this method and regularly shoot scores in the mid 80s.

Recently I had a lesson with another pro who said that during the take away I should not take the club to the parallel position before cocking the wrists and moving the club upwards and turning the shoulders. He suggested that I do it much earlier (i.e. on the clock face analogy this would be around the 4 o'clock position). His rationale being that this ensures the club stays on-plane whereas the parallel take away causes you do drop under the correct plane. I have tried the new method and it does feel a lot better but obviously I need to get used to it.

However, when I have watched the swings of certain pro's, quite a few take the club to the parrallel position before moving up.

Any thoughts on which method is right or wrong and any technical analysis would be great from you guys out there.

[aftford]

Re: Expert opinions required (non experts also welcome !)

Hi Qassim

The best swings start with a slow, smooth, 'one-piece' takeaway.
This means moving your hands, arms, shoulders and hips at the same time in one connected movement as you begin to transfer your weight from your front foot to your back foot.
A good way to visualise this is to 'sweep' the club head back rather than attempting to 'pick it up'.
Keep it low to the ground for longer than may feel necessary - this will give you a nice wide arc.
A good way to check if you have it right is to stop the club head once the shaft is parallel to the ground.
Have a look at the club face. It should be pointing straight up at 90 degrees to the ground.

cheers
aft

[shootin4par]

Re: Expert opinions required (non experts also welcome !)

Technical question for you guys.

I have had some conflicting advice on the take away/backwsing which I'd like your thoughts on.

When I first started playing (about 18 months ago) I had lessons and was told that I should take club away until it was parallel to the ground (i.e. 3 o'clock position) with the toe of the club pointing directly upwards and then cock the wrists and then simply complete the shoulder turn. I've had success with this method and regularly shoot scores in the mid 80s.

Recently I had a lesson with another pro who said that during the take away I should not take the club to the parallel position before cocking the wrists and moving the club upwards and turning the shoulders. He suggested that I do it much earlier (i.e. on the clock face analogy this would be around the 4 o'clock position). His rationale being that this ensures the club stays on-plane whereas the parallel take away causes you do drop under the correct plane. I have tried the new method and it does feel a lot better but obviously I need to get used to it.

However, when I have watched the swings of certain pro's, quite a few take the club to the parrallel position before moving up.

Any thoughts on which method is right or wrong and any technical analysis would be great from you guys out there.

in 18 months you shoot in the mid 80's
my advice would be to go back to that pro
early/late set can just be a matter of preference from one teacher to another but then again your teacher may see something in your swing that needs to be taken care of and may feel the early set will do it. Hogan did half swing drills with his elbows not moving and only using a body turn. He believed this helped him stay on plane. I believe that drill was the ONLY drill he gave in his book, and we all know how well he hit the ball

[edshaw]

Re: Expert opinions required (non experts also welcome !)

I think the idea would be to have stayed with the original method. Download the Nike Tiger Woods slow motion video. It's very plain that Tiger uses the one piece takeaway. Either way, it is important to make a decision, because the rest of the swings builds on what you have done in the first four feet to clubhead travel. Also, stop the video at the point the shaft is parallel to the ground. With the Tiger model, the toe is pointed to the sky. As they say, though, there are more ways than one to get the job done.

[qassim]

Re: Expert opinions required (non experts also welcome !)

Thanks for the replies guys. Much appreciated. It would appear that there is more than one way to do the the 'right swing'.

Even though I was shooting mid 80's with original swing I've been practicing with the new technique and it feels a great deal better. It is more effortless, the ball striking is a lot crisper, the ball fight is better and it seems to have eliminated the bad shot I used to have which was unexpected pulls/hooks to the left.

What I need to do is to keep practicing to get the technique right. This is the hard part. However if it worked for people like Faldo and Tiger who took time out to re-build their swings (with great results) even though there didn't appear to be much wrong with there original swings I'm willing to put in the hours !!

One step back and two steps forward. Keep up the good work guys.

[pnearn]

Re: Expert opinions required (non experts also welcome !)

I think its important to understand what actually happens in the backswing, especially with the arms. It wasnt until I understood this that I improved

Most golfers learn the best visually, but there are a lot of illusions when you look at a golf swing. The biggest one IMO is the illusion that the arms swing sideways on the backswing. All top players do is actually swinging their arms up. It’s the pivot/turn of their bodies that is taking the club sideways.

If you take your stance and just lift the club straight upwards from the elbows so that the club goes over your right shoulder, you'll see the right arm bends to an angle of about ninety-degrees and the wrists set. That is ALL the arms do in the backswing, even though it does not look like it. The hands/wrists do nothing consciously

Now if you pivot/turn from your centre/core you will move sideways into your right side. If you then blend these 2 movements and make sure the arms only hinge up from the elbows you are getting there. Dont let the hands and arms pull or push the club sideways. So the body does the sideways and the arms do the up

If you look at Lee Travino and Freddy Couples, they have more of that up action before the pivot (Right Forearm Pickup, shootin?) so it appears the club up on the outside BUT they still gets the club in a good position at the top. Most players learn to get a balance.

This is probably why 2 different pro's have told you different things, their own preference for when to blend the arm lift into the pivot


HTH

[Shamed04]

Re: Expert opinions required (non experts also welcome !)

Hi all, just wanted to start by saying ive been playing for 4 months and the last round i played about a week ago i shot a 77. I have done this with no lessons and have relied on watching the pros and figuring stuff out for myself.. as for your lesson, it sounds like the second pro you took lessons from was trying to give you a steaper angle of attack..i also begin to cock my wrists before a full takaway and have foudn it to help alot on my game..the best thing ive learned in the past couple months is to get a good rythm and stick with it..i have actually had tons of people comment on how well i swung the club on the course and had several people asked if i would give them a lesson..the truth is i dont know that much...try and keep your swing simple and smooth, if your having success dont change it especially if a pro helped you get there...the more comfortable you feel the better you will play..period

[ricardooo]

Re: Expert opinions required (non experts also welcome !)

heyy im not a pro but im a glf adviser an a top amatuer. the truth is ther isnt a correct position ther is only a correct position for you. pro's have ther own opinion on wats rite (an its usually wat ther swing consists of) . have a look at tigers swing and u will see he dusnt cock his wrists till very late in the backswing. an he has arguably the best and most effective swing ever. iv always tryed 2 emmulate tiger. iv recently changed golf coaches because the 1 i had wanted me 2 cock my wrists earlyer and i disagree. so if the 3 o clock wrist cock works then keep it. i dont think fundimentals like tht should be moved tht much as the perfect swing is not always the most effective. look at john daly an how far inside the line and over swung he is.........hes still won the open at st andrews.

[doogkie]

Re: Expert opinions required (non experts also welcome !)

shamed 04 we need to ply together, ive been shooting mid 70s for the past couple of months and i started playing last september, we are 2 naturals


as for wrist cock, ive been toying around with it and cant quite figure the one thats right for me, but when you do find the one for you thats the one no matter what another pro says

[shootin4par]

Re: Expert opinions required (non experts also welcome !)

have a look at tigers swing and u will see he dusnt cock his wrists till very late in the backswing. an he has arguably the best and most effective swing ever.

tiger himself said that only two people have owned their swing and that was hogan and moe. I dont think tigers swing would be top ten of all time, let alone close to number one. But I will say that by the time he is finished learning about the swing, he may achieve number one, but not now, not close.

[ricardooo]

Re: Expert opinions required (non experts also welcome !)

hi, i think we should agree 2 disagree. tiger woods has the most offective swing ever. by far. he has the ability to hit every shot in golf, not only does he hit the ball high and incredibly far. but the 1 most important thing about a tour pros golf swing, is that it holds under pressure, an he has shown that time and time again an its the reason hes the greatest front runner the sport has ever seen. it is by far more advanced then the likes of hogens. iv been to many tour events and wats many different ball fleights and he stands out from them all by a mile.

[TeachingPro]

Re: Expert opinions required (non experts also welcome !)

Here's an interestign slant on the discussion and it all relates to the modern and traditional thinking of the takeaway. The more traditional thinking and swing mechanics are based on a straighter, less wrist cock takeaway like the Leadbetter 1-piece takeaway.

The other, more modern thought, is to create the wrist hinge early like Sergio Garcia ...

They are different take-away but once the club is perpindicular to the ground and the arms are parallel to the ground (3/4 way back position), from there on they merge and form once "golf swing" again.

But any teaching professional worth a damn should be able to teach both and do whatever feels best for the student and whatever works best.

That's my philosophy ...

[rharris06]

Re: Expert opinions required (non experts also welcome !)

ever tried the right forearm takeaway? Or the right wrist cup takeaway?

[msklar92]

Re: Expert opinions required (non experts also welcome !)

A question, in general, should the arm and club shaft form an L shape by the time the arm is parallel to the ground?? If this is the case, I'm not sure what difference it would make if the wrist cock is earler or later.

[TeachingPro]

Re: Expert opinions required (non experts also welcome !)

Good question.

The difference is repetition and the movement of the golf club.

Quite often when students have an early wrist break, the clubs goes inside the line at the same time becuase they confuse wrist break with wrist roll.

Every golfer must do whatever is repetitable, early or late wrist break - as long as what they do gets the club in the correct position ... there is a different golf swing for every golfer.