Some questions

[kino]

On the golf course the other day my first 6 holes were very disappointing to say the least,
I then had enough of trying to analyze my swing and just relaxed into each shot
without much thought,things improved slowly as the round went on and was eventually
able to hit some good 4 iron shots the ones that were wrong were either hit fat in
a slappy way or I pulled the shot.

This gets me asking some questions about some conflicting info on the downswing,

The first article I read described on initiating the downswing by using legs and
knees.

The second article I read describes using the lower torso and hips to start the
downswing.

And finally the last described to imagine your back still facing the target line
while the hands have started to release on the downswing.

Of the 3 choices above what would you recommend a 17 handicapper would be best to apply.

Sorry to ask some more questions but I like to analyze things this way,I was reading my golf mag when Colin Montgomery was analyzing a 8 handicappers swing,he mentioned the player
did not turn the forearms enough on the back swing,can you say if this is something that should occur naturally,or something to be aware off and actually strive to do when starting the back swing,I did post before that i was guilty of wrist rolling due to the fact i could never get the club head facing up at half swing(would a slight forearm wroll help)

My last question is I have a video clip i forgot where I downloaded it from that showed an instructer giving a tip about hitting the ball with the right hand(especially if they were right handed)should the right hand be as dominant as this and how passive should the left hand then be) while he was hitting his fairway wood his knees had dropped considerably at impact,I always was made to think you should maintain you height even through the shot but he clearly was much lower at impact.

Thanks if you help me clear up any of the above questions.

[gord962]

starting the downswing

Hi Kino,

To help you with how the downswing should strart, it is definitely the back foot that starts the downswing. As you lift your right heel (for right handers), it starts the transfer of weight to your left side. It is almost an instant reaction that your hips start to turn with the raising of your heel. As the hips turn, they bring the torso along with them. Your torso will turn the shoulders which start the arms moving. The arm movement will in turn release the wrists. If you relax your mind and your muscles and let your body do the work and not your brain, this will all happen naturally and in correct sequence and the timing should be perfect. Of course, as always, if the backswing and grip are not correct, nothing will work proper. The downswing is just the uncoiling of your backswing. If you do not coil correctly, you can not uncoil correctly. If your grip is not correct, the wrists will not release at the correct time at the bottom of your downswing.

[jscerbo]

Of all those 3 choices believe it or not they are the same thing

Legs, knees, and Torso

Note This is all lower body iniating the downswing

The back foot has nothing to do with initiating the downswing ( I think what is trying to be said here is that some players feel a push off their right side, however this does not initiate the downswing)

Think about this

When you rotate to the right (backswing)

How do you get to your left side

Your left hip has to unwind this then drops the club downward( on inside path)

For your skill level I concentrate on bumping the hips forward this will ignite the downswing, and your left side will turn to the left, and your lower body will clear)

Regardless of how you start the downswing there is lateral movement in the golf swing especially in intiating the downswing

Great players move 3-4 inches laterally , this helps transfer weight from right to left

Write back with your success

[Golfbald]

Respectfully Submitted

Jordy,

I respect your position as a certified PGA Professional. I would however disagree with a few points of your last post. The ankles knees and hip as well as the shoulders elbows and wrists all have different functions in the swing. Keeping all the peices in balance make a fluid swing.

I would disagree strongly with statement the back foot has nothing to do with initiating the downswing. It has everything with initiating the downswing. You may not be able to feel it with shoes on they kill the feel of what the ankles joint does. This happens in the transition between backswing and start of the through swing. When I loose this position I always go back to hitting balls with my shoes off. The feet are the most sensitive part of the body and can aid greatly in feel and balance of the golf swing.

A scientific principle is "every action has a equal and opposite reaction", in order for the weight to shift to the left side and action on the right side must take place. Working from the top down at the pinnacle of the backswing. If the wrists move first, you have cast the club. If you move your right elbow or left shoulder you will cast and have a high right shoulder because the hips didn't clear. If your left hip unwinds, as you prescribe, the weight is still on the right leg and the torque your left knee would be pretty painful (I tried it). If you move your right knee first, you would collapse your left side once again because the weight shift has not occured yet. Finally, the only lever left in the right ankle. If the right heel lifting causes the right ankle to bend and the weight shifts immediately to the left side.

The statement of the left hip unwinding, in a swinger's swing the left hip may unwind but in a hitters swing the right hip is moving parallel and forwardforward, the left hip is a post for the right hip to rotate around. The left hip stays parallel left and the right hip, knee and ankle rotate around it. If the left hip unwinds, and the right hip is rotating at the same time there is never a stable base for the downswing to occur. The left leg is the anchor. I believe the hip action is a compound action. The hips move up down then rotate.

Please comment,

Respectfully,

GolfBald

[Gotham]

Kino,

I'm not an expert, just relaying information I acquired from a top notch instructor. The instructor I use says the same thing Jordy wrote in his reply to you. Initiate the downswing with your hips.

I recommend you find a top notch instructor...it's worth the extra money. I've spent money/time with local club pros and it is very hit or miss. Find a Golf Digest top 100 teacher, or a teacher that somebody very highly recommends, particulary one that videos your swing and shows you where the clubhead is in relation to your swing planes (remember, there are two swing planes: your backswing plane and your downswing plane---the downswing plane should be shallower--a proper hip turn initiating the downswing should cause this).

I also recommend you buy Hogan's 5 Lessons and study it while you study with a top notch instructor...and practice very wisely. Practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect (I think Cal Ripken Sr. said this, and it's true). I'm sure Jordy will advise you how to practice wisely.

Some answers to the questions you posed (again, this is what I gleaned from Hogan and a very good instructor):

1) initiate downswing with hips (the only thing I would say that is a little different than Jordy is that a good pivot will shift your weight to the front foot, there should not be a need for a conscious lateral move--but I would trust Jordy on this)
2) Rotation of the left forearm does occur, as does a hinging of the wrists...but a sound grip and a sound posture is absolutely critical (read Hogan)
3) Hands should be completely out of the swing until impact and then BOTH hands hit THROUGH the ball, not just the right...

I would have replied just to you, but I didn't see that option with the revised system....I don't feel qualified sending a general posting, so I apologize to those of you who are excellent golfers....just wanted to relay my experience with Kino and other high handicappers wanting to improve.

Kino...just one last thing---the average golfer starts the downswing with the hands, this causes the dreaded over the top move which leads to all kinds of problems (slice, pull, shank)...examine your divots--if your divot is going left, you probably are initiating the swing with the hands. Somebody with good hands can sometimes compensate, but you really should learn how to start the downswing with the hips, it will lead to more enjoyment of the game. And the comment you made about the back facing the target while the hips are initiating the downswing...some tour pros, will actually initiate their downswing hip turn while they're still finishing their backswing shoulder turn (this just underscores how critical it is to initiate the downswing with the hip turn to enable you to get the club head on a shallower plane).

Good luck!

[Sven7]

Re: Some questions

Believe me, lifting the back heel to start the downswing is a very viable way to start the downswing.
I have surprisingly found it to be easier and more effective than the commonly taught practice of "bumping the hip", "shifting the weight" or "turning the knee to the front" all of which we have all heard of a million times.
At least give it an honest try, what do you have to lose?
If I may ask you, Golfbald, where did you find this swing thought? Did you figure it out yourself?
Very, very good.

[mconn]

Re: Some questions

As a long time coach of both football and baseball, and having one of my baseball players later becoming a professional golfer and the conversations we've had about common athletic moves, I can only say that I can think of no similar sport activity that does not start without a "push" or stabilizing if you will, of the back leg. That does not mean it has to be a obvious move, or even part of your swing thought, but I feel it is definitely part of the whole body move in the swing and is naturally better occurring early in the sequencing of moves. If you're thinking of "sliding" your hips forward or turning your knee first, fine, but the back leg must be involved before that can happen. That's just the way the body functions.

[Adilah]

Re: Some questions

yes agreed with Sven7