Shaft Stiffness

[jayryan]

Hi all,

I am going to be purchasing a new driver in the very near future. I have been told that the main thing I should be concerned with is the stiffness of the shaft. I have been told two different things regarding shaft stiffness.

The first is that the stiffer the shaft the less likely you will be to slice the ball. Then I have also been told that the more flexible the shaft is the less likely you will slice your drive.

What makes sense to me is that the stiffer the shaft the less likely you would be to slice the ball.

I will be getting either the Ping G5 or the Callaway X460 but am hung up on what kind of shaft I should get.

Does anyone have a definite answer to this question???

[canadian_man_44]

Re: Shaft Stiffness

Get your swingspeed checked. If you have too much flex on your shaft for your swingspeed then your clubface will be open when you connect with the ball causing you to slice. On the opposite end of the scale, if your shaft is too stiff the clubface has the tendency to be closed when it contacts the ball causing you to hook. When you have the right stiffness of shaft for your swingspeed then the shaft is straightened when you connect with the ball(not bent forward or backward) and your ball will go straight.

Here's a swing speed conversion chart I found online that might help you with your choice of flex. Keep in mind, however, that every shaftmaker is slightly different. Regular flex in one make of shaft might be the same as a stiff flex in another make shaft.

LADIES FLEXDriver speed swing less than 60 mph (100 km/h). Driver carry distance less than 180 yds. Club used from 150 yds. a 3 iron or wood.SENIOR or A FLEXDriver speed swing 60-75 mph (100-120 km/h). Driver carry distance 180-210 yds. Club used from 150yds. a 4 iron.REGULAR FLEXDriver speed swing 75-84 mph (120-135 km/h). Driver carry distance 210-240 yds. Club used from 150 yds. a 5 or 6 iron.STIFF FLEXDriver speed swing 84-93 mph (130-150 km/h). Driver carry distance 240-260 yds. Club used from 150 yds. a 6 or 7 iron.X-STIFF FLEXDriver speed swing over 93 mph (150 km/h). Driver carry distance 260+ yds. Club used from 150 yds. a 8 or 9 iron

Hope this helps.

[jayryan]

Re: Shaft Stiffness

According to the chart I should look at getting the extra stiff shaft because I do hit my 9 iron 150 yards. I never would've thought I needed an extra stiff shaft, but apparently I should look at those too.

I will be getting fitted for the driver I purchase and will find out for sure what my swing speed is and what shaft I should get.


Thanks for the conversion chart!! It is very helpful.

[LowPost42]

Re: Shaft Stiffness

Get your swingspeed checked.

That's one part of the equation, yes.

If you have too much flex on your shaft for your swingspeed then your clubface will be open when you connect with the ball causing you to slice. On the opposite end of the scale, if your shaft is too stiff the clubface has the tendency to be closed when it contacts the ball causing you to hook. When you have the right stiffness of shaft for your swingspeed then the shaft is straightened when you connect with the ball(not bent forward or backward) and your ball will go straight.

I still don't believe this conjecture to be true. If the shaft is too stiff, you will not load it. If it cannot be loaded, how can it unload (bend forward) through impact? However, you can obviously load a shaft that is too weak. The kicker, though, is that the shaft may never fully unload (causing an open clubface), or with an eariler release, be bending forward with a more closed clubface. I've ran experiments at both ends of the scale - XXX flex long drive shafts and a LL flex. I sliced both of them. Repeatedly. Well, ok, the XXX driver was more like a push fade, while the LL was a wicked slice. My point is that having the wrong flex will accentuate swing flaws - not necessarily cause one ball flight or another.

Here's a swing speed conversion chart I found online that might help you with your choice of flex. Keep in mind, however, that every shaftmaker is slightly different. Regular flex in one make of shaft might be the same as a stiff flex in another make shaft.

LADIES FLEXDriver speed swing less than 60 mph (100 km/h). Driver carry distance less than 180 yds. Club used from 150 yds. a 3 iron or wood.SENIOR or A FLEXDriver speed swing 60-75 mph (100-120 km/h). Driver carry distance 180-210 yds. Club used from 150yds. a 4 iron.REGULAR FLEXDriver speed swing 75-84 mph (120-135 km/h). Driver carry distance 210-240 yds. Club used from 150 yds. a 5 or 6 iron.STIFF FLEXDriver speed swing 84-93 mph (130-150 km/h). Driver carry distance 240-260 yds. Club used from 150 yds. a 6 or 7 iron.X-STIFF FLEXDriver speed swing over 93 mph (150 km/h). Driver carry distance 260+ yds. Club used from 150 yds. a 8 or 9 iron
Hope this helps.

While the yardages seem close, the corresponding swing speed measurements are off. Sorry. Way off. Using trajectory software, an average-weighted clubhead (200g) swung at 93 mph with a level angle of attack and a 16° driver produces a carry distance of 218 yards. With a +2° angle of attack, our golfer gets 2 more yards, at 93 mph.

However, if you're carrying the ball (that's all air travel, boys and girls)260 yards, assuming a 10° driver and a level angle of attack, you're swinging in the 112-115 mph range. You're also probably swinging your 5 iron 90+ mph. Now you should be considering xstiff shafts.

Personally, I use a 10.5° driver, average a 100 mph swing speed (give or take 3 mph), have a +2.6° angle of attack, and average 240 yards of carry (give or take 5 yards).

To further confuse the issue, there are the folks that are anomalies. The guy with the 90mph driver swing speed, who absolutely nuts the X flex driver, but sprays the R flex. The guy who plays X stiff irons that are shorter than standard, but cannot seem to control anything weaker. They're out there, you may be one. But they're tough to find (and even tougher to fit!).

Now, jayryan, the other thing you have to figure out when you go in for your driver fitting is where on the sliding scale of distance vs control do you want to be? Do you want to buy a little fairway finder? Or do you want to be the longest guy in your foursome (possibly at the expense of your accuracy?) You need to answer this question for yourself. Most guys pick somewhere in the middle, with a lean towards distance. The normal 'fix' for that is to increase loft while keeping the length the same.

Along with swing speed, how you swing is another component in selecting the shaft for your driver. If you're really smooth, you can use less flex. If you tend to really 'hit' at the ball, or go at it aggressively from the top, usually you can use more flex.

Canadian_man, can you post the URL of the website? I'm curious to see what else they have posted

[canadian_man_44]

Re: Shaft Stiffness

[
LowPost,

True, a swing with flaws can be the problem. I'm not argueing that point. However, in my quest to find the perfect combination, I have demoed several drivers with different flexes. Using the same swing with each club here's what I came to find. Regular flex = slice, stiff flex = straight, xstiff flex = draw-hook. You can take any stiffness of shaft and "load it". Although you might not notice it flexing as much as the regular, the stiff or even xstiff shaft will flex, however slight it may be, which will cause it to unload at some point in your swing, which can cause a closed club face if it unloads before contact with the ball. My point is, the wrong shaft flex in my last driver was the ultimate reason for some very intense slicing. Anyway, just for arguments sake jayryan, what is the shaft flex in your current driver? Do you slice with it? If so, take it to the driving range and hit some balls with it. Hit a few balls like you normally would. Are you slicing? If you are, hit a few more balls but swing slower, say around 85% of your regular speed. Are you slicing? If not then you probably should shift to a stiffer shaft. That's what I did and it works great.

As far as the swing speed conversion chart goes, I don't see anywhere on it where it says the driver angle is 16degrees. Personally, I have a swing speed of around 95 MPH. I use a 10.5 degree driver and I carry the ball 250-265 in the air. To me, that seems pretty damn close to the chart. Also, as the chart says, I hit my 7 iron 150 yards. I found this chart online while searching for a chart that might help jayryan with his choice of shaft. Sorry, I checked out quite a few places so don't know the url.

Anyway, Lowpost you might notice what I said just before the chart in my previous post. I'll quote myself,

"Here's a swing speed conversion chart I found online that might help you with your choice of flex. Keep in mind, however, that every shaftmaker is slightly different. Regular flex in one make of shaft might be the same as a stiff flex in another make shaft."

How much more clear than that can I be. Every shaftmaker in the world doesn't conform to exact standards. For example, Penleys stiff flex may not have the exact flex as Aldilas stiff flex. This chart seemed to be the closest to my swing speed = distance so that's the one I copied. It might not be the same for you, however, as far as what flex you should have when comparing carrying distance, most of these charts seem to be pretty close, thank you very much.

As far as this trajectory software that you speak of, I put my stats as far as swing speed, launch angle, etc. into a few of these and they don't come close to the distance I actually hit my driver. I guess they're not perfect either, are they??????

[canadian_man_44]

Re: Shaft Stiffness

Just as an added note let us talk about the "sliding scale of distance vs control" that LowPost has aforementioned. What is control exactly? Does one actually have to give up control to get distance? I don't think so. IMHO a proper swing along with the proper shaft and head can give you the distance you want with as much control as you want. With my stiff flex shaft on my driver I hit the ball 275-290(carry and roll) right down the middle. My brother uses a stiff shaft in his driver and hits the ball 300-320(carry and roll with the occassional 330-340) right down the middle. Thats not fluke, thats consistent driving. My brother recently got a new driver that came with a regular flex shaft and immediately started slicing. He changed back to the stiff shaft and the problem was solved. Great distance with no loss of control. PROPER SWING, PROPER SHAFT, PROPER HEAD. If everything is done properly you don't need to sacrifice distance or control.

[canadian_man_44]

Re: Shaft Stiffness

I hope everyone understands the previous posts are just what I've noticed in my own game and is in no way a professionals opinion. I do read a lot of golf magazines and watch a lot of the golf channel to learn as much as I can about the game, so I do feel like my opinions do have some validity. Some will agree and some will disagree, that's just the way it goes, but then again, you see that with the professional players and coaches who may have drastically different opinions about the exact same topic. That being said, try these things out that are posted by professionals and amateurs and weekend duffers. Find what works for you and then stick with it. The fundamentals of the game never change although the equipment and peoples opinions sometimes do. Thank you for allowing me this short rant and I hope I haven't offended anyone. If I have, try to remember, IT'S ONLY AN OPINION!!!!!!!!!


On a totally different topic, congratulations LowPost42 on the upcoming addition to your family. Is it your first? I've got two children and they are lots of fun. They do tend to cut down on the amount of time I spend on the golf course but they're almost old enough to take out with me now. Can hardly wait.

[canadian_man_44]

Re: Shaft Stiffness

I just purchased a new driver. Classic Tour Highly High Bore. Probably means nothing to you but it's a clone of the Cleveland HiBore. I borrowed a demo Cleveland HiBore which has the same loft as my clone. The only difference in the clubs was the shafts. HiBore had a regular flex, mine has a Gramman TP440 stiff shaft. I've been a slicer for the past couple of years but I could straighten out my drive by letting up on my swing and dropping my right foot back a couple of inches. I setup my feet the same way for every club and didn't want to have to setup different with my driver because it just felt ackward. After consulting with a chart similar to the one I posted earlier, I decided to go from regular to stiff shaft and that's why I got the Gramman TP440 stiff on my new driver. Today I compared the 10.5 degree HiBore with my 10.5 degree High Bore. Both heads are exactly the same. Like I said before, the only difference was the flex of the shafts. With the regular shaft I was okay with an easy swing, however, as soon as I used my full swingspeed I started slicing, which is really hard to do with a HiBore. With the stiff shaft on an easy swing I came up shorter then usual and way left. Stiff shaft with full swingspeed I hit my drives straight up the middle. After experimenting with weak, regular and strong grips, I found with a slightly stronger grip then usual I was getting that perfect little draw that I've been trying to get for a couple years. I'd better mention also, 82%(I counted and calculated) of the balls I hit with the stiff shaft and strong grip cleared the fence at the back of the driving range. This fence is the 250 Yard marker, it's 30 feet high and I was clearing it by anywhere from 10 to 20 feet. Taking the trajectory and normal roll that I'd get on a fairway, that ball should be well over 300 yards. I'm not gonna say for sure until I try it on the long par 5.

Bottom line: Stiff shaft cured my slice