Rolling the wrists

[jambalaya]

One part of the swing that I have seen mentioned by many instructors is the idea of rolling the wrists to square the club at impact. I have been working on this a bit but having trouble with timing the roll so to speak. Also, I think one better be bringing the club properly from the inside or the roll will cause an ugly hook. Could someone explain this aspect of the swing? What is the best way to time it or think about it. I definitely see a lot of pros rolling the wrists in their swings.

[Christo]

Re: Rolling the wrists

This was one of the most difficult things I had to learn. I looked at videos and noticed pros formed a X after impact with the right hand crossing the left.
I worked on this very hard, but it just confused me. I was doing all the wrong things trying ot achieve the X.

I started focussing on the fundamentals at the impact zone and the rolling of the wrist started to happen by itself.
The things I worked on was the straightening of the right arm at impact and transferring my weight to the left side. Another thing I noticed was that my left leg wasn't straight at impact.
My head was not behind the ball at impact.
And then one thing that really worked for me was improving my rotation around my spine and my shoulder rotation.
I've found that a high finish with the right arm staying straight almost to the finish of the swing promoted the rolling of the wrists.
I recommend looking at videos of pros and compare to yours. This will help a lot in seeing why your not rolling the wrists.

Good luck!

[GoNavy]

Re: Rolling the wrists

One part of the swing that I have seen mentioned by many instructors is the idea of rolling the wrists to square the club at impact. I have been working on this a bit but having trouble with timing the roll so to speak. Also, I think one better be bringing the club properly from the inside or the roll will cause an ugly hook. Could someone explain this aspect of the swing? What is the best way to time it or think about it. I definitely see a lot of pros rolling the wrists in their swings.

What you are seeing is an optical illusion, and responsible for thousand of golfers flipping thier hands over in an attempt to do this, which is wrong. If you stand in front of a mirror and get into your address now cock your wrist up so the club is parrallel to the ground, now turn to the left while folding the left arm, as you would in the swing, make sure to keep the toe of the club point up (this is square) you will notice it appears you rolled your wrist, however you did not, this is how it happens in the swing as will, you cock the wrist, release through impact, then recock the wrist on the follow thru, it just appears to roll, but does not, this same effect happens on the backswing, with the right arm folding. If you indeed rolled the wrists you would open/close the clubface, and would be difficult at best to time or conttrol.

Put another way, if your body stayed stationary, then you would have to roll the wrist, however since the body is turning throughout the swing and your hands/arms are attached to it, then the body takes care of the rolling for you.

[GolfJunkieSr]

Re: Rolling the wrists

Not sure if this will help, but it did work for me. I was told that if I extended my right arm on the follow through after impact, that the rolling action of the wrists would take care of themselves. I have never, ever thought about anything else in my down swing other than that. Some instructors use the analogy of "shaking hands" with someone. This move, if done correctly, and the same everytime, will help the wrists to roll the same amount (just about) everytime, which also will help with consistant timing of the release. I never thought about my wrist roll, or my release, because I concentrated on extending down the line with right hand/arm. That one swing thought took the place of at least two others, and probably more for me. Not saying this swing thought is a cure all for the swing. It's not, since there are many aspects to swinging properly. However, it has worked well for me over the years. GJS

[BrianW]

Re: Rolling the wrists

Rolling the wrists through impact is a very difficult manoeuvre, golfers do it often in vain to stop slicing.

I prefer the "Puck" release, this is similar to the way an ice hockey player propels the puck forward on the ice. You need to allow your right wrist to push under your left through impact, this gives additional acceleration and keeps the club face square to the target much longer than wrist rotation. there will inevitably be a degree of forearm rotation as you progress past impact though.

To help with the image think that you have a thin piece of string tied midway up your right forearm and tightly halfway down the club at address. As you hit through the ball imagine you will try to SNAP the string by the pushing through action of the right wrist under the left and the additional push forward in the club.

Don't mix this up with a scooping behind the ball, you must have made a good downswing with correct weight transfer first. Try it with some half swings using an 8 iron first then progress to a full swing. You should notice how the ball keeps straighter to target and the additional ball speed.

[jambalaya]

Re: Rolling the wrists

Not sure if this will help, but it did work for me. I was told that if I extended my right arm on the follow through after impact, that the rolling action of the wrists would take care of themselves. I have never, ever thought about anything else in my down swing other than that. Some instructors use the analogy of "shaking hands" with someone. This move, if done correctly, and the same everytime, will help the wrists to roll the same amount (just about) everytime, which also will help with consistant timing of the release. I never thought about my wrist roll, or my release, because I concentrated on extending down the line with right hand/arm. That one swing thought took the place of at least two others, and probably more for me. Not saying this swing thought is a cure all for the swing. It's not, since there are many aspects to swinging properly. However, it has worked well for me over the years. GJS

This is the kind of advice for which I am looking. Consciously trying to roll the wrists and time it correctly is difficult. I would appreciate more thoughts about it though.

[GoNavy]

Re: Rolling the wrists

You guys are high, let me repeat, there is no rolling of the wrist, EVER period. Rolling causes the club face to open and close, why would anyone want to induce and extra moves into, what is already complicated enough. See for yourself, do it without turning, or swinging the arms, just left the club and roll the wrist, the face opens, roll back the face closes, why would you do that, the wrist cock in only one direction up/down, there is no fliping it back, no rolling. The turning of the body back should have the face still square (toe points up) just as it would if you don't turn, but just cock your wrist straight up. It only appears to roll, because the dynamics of turning the body and cocking the wrist. You may get lucky and hit a few good shots by timing it just right doing this rolling thing, but you will never be consistant doing that for any lenght of time.

Don't get me wrong, I am not bashing anyone, but this concept has been around awhile, and it is just plain wrong. People have been buying into it for years, and for years they have been screwing up their swings. I am attacking this rolling concept and not any person personally, so please don't start calling me names or getting mad. If you don't agree, fine, explain your position, as I have.

[GoNavy]

Re: Rolling the wrists

Pronating yes, but that is not rolling the wrist, pronating simply places the hands well ahead of the clubhead. Hitting hard with the right, yes, but that is not swating, because the clubhead never passes the hands. We are in agreement, the point I am making is most people misinterpret these actions, and that is what they do, roll and swat. So it better to try and maintain a stable relationship between the club and hands, without manipulation (rolling, etc...) this will usually lead to swating at the ball, and left hand/arm breakdown if they don't maintain this relationship. This is the point I am making.

[GolfJunkieSr]

Re: Rolling the wrists

You make a good point GoNavy, but all I know is my wrists follow my arms, and arrms roll, both in the back swing, and after impact on the down swing, into my follow through. They don't roll very much, and it is not a very prononced move in my swing, but there is some there. When I read your post, I had to go outside to make sure I was rolling them. Like I said you make a good point.

I was going to let this pass, but something just does click right for me. As for pronating I always thought that was an old Scottish term that discribed the hands as gradually rolling to the right. I believe Hogan thought this as well when he fixed his hooking problem. I know people use the same terms to discribe different aspects of the swing. Probably old school versus young school. I know they make pronating shoes to fix foot problems. ...LOL

I did find this discription in a PGA glossary:

Pronation An inward rotation of the hands towards the body?s centerline when standing in a palms-facing-forward position. (The term was inaccurately used for many years to describe the rotation of both hands through the impact area. In fact, one hand, the right, was pronating while the left was supinating. Obviously, it is impossible to pronate both hands through the shot.)

With so much information available on the golf swing today, it is tough to figure out what is correct, and what is not when using the various terms. GJS

[GoNavy]

Re: Rolling the wrists

You make a good point GoNavy, but all I know is my wrists follow my arms, and arrms roll, both in the back swing, and after impact on the down swing, into my follow through. They don't roll very much, and it is not a very prononced move in my swing, but there is some there. When I read your post, I had to go outside to make sure I was rolling them. Like I said you make a good point.

I was going to let this pass, but something just does click right for me. As for pronating I always thought that was an old Scottish term that discribed the hands as gradually rolling to the right. I believe Hogan thought this as well when he fixed his hooking problem. I know people use the same terms to discribe different aspects of the swing. Probably old school versus young school. I know they make pronating shoes to fix foot problems. ...LOL

I did find this discription in a PGA glossary:

Pronation An inward rotation of the hands towards the body?s centerline when standing in a palms-facing-forward position. (The term was inaccurately used for many years to describe the rotation of both hands through the impact area. In fact, one hand, the right, was pronating while the left was supinating. Obviously, it is impossible to pronate both hands through the shot.)

With so much information available on the golf swing today, it is tough to figure out what is correct, and what is not when using the various terms. GJS

I agree, when I said pronating it was mistake, supinating in the more correct term, simply means the top of left hand is closer to the target then the fingers portion, I have heard this called both pronating and supinating, the old days they called in pronating. But it does not involve rolling, technically the arms do roll, but not in relation to the body, only if viewed outwardly, because the body is turning, you have to agree any rolling action by diffinition must change the face of the club. maintaining the relationship to the body as it turn, opens and closes the face, not the hands or arms. When people start consiously trying to roll the hands or arms for that matter, they begin to lay off the club, flip the hands, etc... the list goes on.

cmays I have absolutely no idea what you are saying half the time. As for playing for money, sure no problem I usually do. I am a scratch player, I don't lose very often, but I am not good enough for the senior tour, 49 yo right now, so I am very interested in anything that will make me better, them old goats are making serious money, wish I could get there. Your ideas are interesting, but I just don't understand what you saying. That is why this is a great forum, always something new to learn.

[Simon Woo]

Re: Rolling the wrists

Golfone, for what it's worth, what you just posted makes perfect sense to me! I've asked in another post before, how many knuckles of my lead hand should I be seeing on my backswing. I realised I could see all the knuckles shortly after takeaway - conclusion was that I was rotating my hands way too much. Why? I think one big reason was because everybody kept saying at the top of the swing, you should have your back hand like a waiter holder a tray. In order to achieve that position, the only way was to rotate a whole lot on the backswing!

I don't believe in that tip anymore. I think it should not be so drastic as a waiter holder a tray horizontal, but rather closer to a 45deg where the club face is square at the top and not so open that you would hold a tray with your back palm.

I think because of that I had to make a lot of adjustments coming down to impact, and definitely losing distance and solid contact.

[drbob]

Re: Rolling the wrists

The best advice i've gotten about timing the roll,, or timing the release, or lag... whatever you want to call it, is that it isn't timing. Your swing doesn't care what time it is. It only cares that you have the club square at impact.

If you want speed, at somepoint your hands are going to have to get that club around to the ball. How they do it is important, but from a timing point of view, it's more a question of where, in relation to the rest of your body, do you wish to start.

Jim McLean teaches to start when your hands are over your right knee. A good place to start. Just remember, depending your your swing speed, you may have to adjust, for you, and club length.

The nice part of this is, it doesn't require timing, it's spacial.

Rob

[Timothy Slaught]

Re: Rolling the wrists

Hello All:

Probably the most talked about issue on the forum......to swat or not to swat?....has a nice ring....

As a beginner with no lessons at all, I had very good hand to eye coordination and golf seemed very easy. My swing, if you could call it that, made Trevino's look long and languid. It was short, fast and 99% swat. I could hit it pretty long and I was about a 12 in my first year playing. Fortunately I played often and this helped keep my handicap respectible considering the short amount of time I had been playing. I swatted because by all means, it seems the logical way to swing. Looking at the anatomy and design of the wrists you can move them in the swatting manner with a good range of motion and speed. In all other sports where you are throwing a ball and even the tennis stroke require the swatting movement of the right wrist. So with absolutely no knowledge of the correct mechanics and proper total body movement required in the golf swing, I set about having fun playing with my swat but mysteriously not getting any better after playing golf for several years.

Then something really bad happened.....I got a job and had to stop playing golf five times a week. In fact it had gotten to the point where I was lucky to get out once a week and then once a month. Along the way another very bad thing happened to my golf game....I started really getting afraid to hit the ball. Why? because the lack of time playing started really effecting the timing of my very incorrect golf swing. Some times the timing was OK and I'd play to a 15 but the next time out I had no idea where the ball was going..no clue. No clue = Fear. Golf not fun anymore!

There is a happy ending to the story because out of adversity, with a little knowledge, determination and a plain fascination with this great game, I set about to learn the swing correctly from the bottom up. One of the final pieces of the puzzle to come together was the concept of the correct hinging and unhinging of the golf club. This is not a swat. It is a very limited range of motion (that's the good part) of the right and left wrists. The right wrist in particular has to move very little but with the correct action of the feet, legs, torso, shoulders, head, arms, fingers etc...that right wrist can deliver a very effecient blow to the ball. You are able to keep the left wrist flat at impact which last I checked is the case with every good ball striker. Somewhere on this thread, I saw a comment about wanting to get rid of all lower body movement? I do not recommend this. Learn the correct wrist action starting with the short irons. Get a training tool to help you feel and memorize the correct right hand action. I made one but the Greg Norman Secret, Wrist Tack, or Swing Glove are good options. Check out Greg's Right Hand Drill and Impact drill on this site as they must work in conjunction with each other.

When driving a golf ball the head of the driver can be moving in excess of 100 miles per hour. You want to find a way to minimize the amount of rotation needed in general during this action. The object is to deliver the club head in as straight a line as possible at the 100 plus MPH. By setting up the large easier to control and slower moving muscles in the correct swinging action, you can eliminate nearly all of the rotation from the wrists. Yes the arms will rotate somewhat but again, this is far easier than trying to manipulate the split second timing required of the wrists in a swat when the oject you are controlling (club head not the ball) is moving at that rate of speed.

[Simon Woo]

Re: Rolling the wrists

I wonder if you guys have seen how the Japanese typically swing? I'm not sure how to really describe it but perhaps the best way to put it is that they keep the clubface facing the ball throughout the whole swing till impact. I've seen some of them hit very far this way :O

[Simon Woo]

Re: Rolling the wrists

Apparently this method is not very popular nowadays? Do you have any quick comparison between this and the classic swing? Do you teach this kind of swing at all?

I've had the habit of fanning the club open very early (already seeing all lead hand knuckles at takeaway). This swing seems to be the exact opposite