Lets Talk: Rotation

[pnearn]

Here's another episode of our FABulous lets talk series

This weeks is rotation

The position we aspire to impact ( as per Gregs redoubtable impact drill) is with the hips past 45 degrees open at impact (Tiger has them 90 degress open), so we have to rotate our lower bodies to clear the hips and allow the shoulders to swing the arms down on an inside path

Im interested to know your thoughts on:

• How do you describe your feeling of lower body rotation from the top? A spin of the hips like Hogan, a fire of the right side like Ballard, a roll of the ankles like Jack?
• Do you feel like you try and get your right hip and right elbow to the ball together at impact?
• Is it easier to do this in balance with the weight on the balls/middle/heels of your feet?
• Do you rotate and hold the cup in the wrists or dont you rotate enough and have to use the hands to flip/swat?
• How can one increase speed of this rotation (immediately through mechanics - not strength training) without losing balance?
• Do you believe its a left side pull, a right side push or something in the middle?

I have my views on these but im interested in all yours. This is the guts of the DS right here and im keen to improve it

[Neil18]

Re: Lets Talk: Rotation

Hi pnearn.

Some good questions in here. I have had something of a revelation in my golf swing over the past two days (and 500 range balls!). I shall attempt to answer the points individually as I see them. I'm a right hander playing off 5:

1. I would describe my lower body in a number of different ways depending on which body part I'm talking about. From the bottom up; I take my weight from inside my right foot to completely on my left foot (i.e. not favouring a particular portion of my left foot). I really move to stand on my left foot. When I didn't take this approach I lost balance. If I stand firmly to my left side, I won't lose balance. The fact that my weight was on the inside of my right foot means my right foot "rolls" target-wards as the weight moves onto my left foot. Moving upwards, this results in my right knee moving toward my left knee. With the hips, I feel it as if it is a combination of my left hip moving to the rear (as it must do for my left leg to straighten and be "firm" to take my weight and stand properly in balance) with my right hip moving toward the target, forward and down toward my left knee. One thing I have noticed with good ball strikers is that at impact their spine angle is more tilted than it was at address. To do this, my right hip has to move forward and down otherwise I'll give myself serious back problems!

2. Not really considered this before but I suppose I do. I would say, however that in relation to "degrees of openness to the target" it's probably more like 35. If I get too open, I have to flip my hands to make contact. That's a big no no for me.

3. I try to keep my balance on a line that would disect my foot equidistant between the balls and heels of my feet. Anything forward of that = shank/slice as my should has to come over the top and wrists flick to make contact. Anything back of that is hook/toe territiry.

4. I used to be a flipper/swatter. Very bad for distance, direction and consistency. I don't think of my wrists at all. As long as I make no effort to hit at the ball with my wrists, centrifugal force will result in the clubhead coming square at impact and releasing beoynd the ball. Just had to do a bit of experimenting with what grip resulted in a square impact for my swing.

5. In my case, losing balance is directly related to quick sharp, or even violent body motion. Not necessary. If I think of a wheel, the inside of it is moving slower and the outside is moving quicker to cover a greater distance automatically. I swing my arms as a separate unit to my body turn. After all, the swing is supposed to work best when the swinging of the arms and rotation of the body is matched up correctly. Body - slow, arms- quicker.

6. I think this relates to my point above. I swing my arms. I don't pull them down with my left side or push them with my right. My arms swing, my body turns. Two separate entities working in harmony.

Hope this is of some use to someone! Feel free to ask questions if I haven't explained it well.

[pnearn]

Re: Lets Talk: Rotation

Thanks Neil

Yes the left foot is a good one. I like the idea of 'standing on the left heel' or 'use the left foot as an accelerator pedal' whilst keeping your shoulders fully turned - thats one of the feelings I go back to when things get off

[detonum]

Re: Lets Talk: Rotation

Hi pnearn, interesting subject

I feel like I'm turning my whole torso - hips and shoulders. I don't try to really restrict anything. I turn my torso by firing my right side, pulling from the left side doesn't work for me.

Weight in the middle of the foot is best - I'm working on that right now as I'm leaning abit to the toe.

I used to flip my wrists - I practiced keeping my right wrist cupped, and now I don't have to think about it anymore. I can release my wrists all I want, and my wrists wont flip.

[BrianW]

Re: Lets Talk: Rotation

Hi Paul,

A lot to comment on in one session. here is a start:

Item 1 of 6)

It's not so easy to describe what I feel as it tends to happen without any conscious thought. If I look at what happens from the top I have started to become slightly more squat just before reaching the top with my left knee starting to push back left, this increases the torque between my upper and lower torso. This is followed by a slide and rotation of my hips while simultaneously tracing the butt of the club along the extended ball to target line.

2 of 6)

No, I don't try to do that but in effect it is what happens. I do hit through hard with my right side through impact, trying to concentrate on hitting a point around six inches in front of the ball to ensure acceleration at impact.

3 of 6)

I like my weight evenly distributed so that I have a "springy" feel at address, a bit like receiving serve in tennis. I guess weight is slightly favouring the balls of the feet.

4 of 6)

I don't retain any cupping at impact, I still do not fully understand the need for it. As I aim for my shoulders to be only a small amount past parallel to target at impact I have no need for cupping, in fact I use Nick Bradley's "Puck" release that pushes my right wrist under my left for additional lag release and good direction of the clubface.

5 of 6)

I don't look for faster rotation as it unbalances me, I try to keep a good relationship between the club and my body rotation while seeking additional head speed through the hands and forearms in the release.

6 of 6)

Both, I use the left side in the downswing to obtain the correct club and body position so that I can release and fire through with the right side (hand, arm, shoulder, hip, leg and knee)

That's it to be going on with.

[Neil18]

Re: Lets Talk: Rotation

Indeed. The thing I find hard is getting onto my left foot whilst fractionally delaying my shoulder turn. I'm trying to get the feeling of a slight stretch down my left side (between left hip and left shoulder) before turning through. When I get it right the ball really flies and I don't feel it come off the club, but when I get it wrong I de-evolve back to the good ol' shoulder lunge! This normally happens when I've hit a cracker as per above and think to myself I can hit it as hard as I like cos I wanna do THAT again!

Bugger.

[BrianW]

Re: Lets Talk: Rotation

I forgot to say that I have around four golf swings though. The previous one is for a full distance swing. In the mid to short game that all goes out the window.

[snake]

Re: Lets Talk: Rotation

Neil18 wrote :
4. I used to be a flipper/swatter. Very bad for distance, direction and consistency. I don't think of my wrists at all. As long as I make no effort to hit at the ball with my wrists, centrifugal force will result in the clubhead coming square at impact and releasing beoynd the ball. Just had to do a bit of experimenting with what grip resulted in a square impact for my swing.

Neil I am interested in your comment "experimenting with what grip resulted in a square impact"
I am a swatter who does not rotate open at impact.
I open up but maybe 12" after impact !
I am working on this and I have come to the conclusion that strengthening my grip (move to left) is a good countermeasure.
What do you think ?

[Neil18]

Re: Lets Talk: Rotation

Hi snake. Thanks for asking.

I think from your explanation, I have been there. I don't wish to appear pedantic and maybe someone could correct me on this if I'm wrong, but presuming you're a right hander, moving your hands left (anti-clockwise) on your grip is a weaker grip (I think!).

Anyways, I will talk from my experience and hope it relates to you. If not, sorry!

When I was not turning through the shot and getting my lower half open to the target at impact, I was definately a "flipper". I think this resulted from atleast one year spent attempting to get some clubhead lag and stop a weak high pushy slicy thingy. When I moved my hands to the left on the grip it felt as if I was giving my hands better control, because I had a handsy swing. It meant that I could feel as if my right hand was "palming" the ball at the target, and this was telling me that I had my hands ahead of the ball at impact.

Turns out I finally got my swing on camera and my GOD it was awful. Lag had disappeared half way down to the ball, big lunge with my top half in order to try and get some power (don't know about you but weakening my grip meant an even further loss of power with my rotationless swing). However, the clubhead was square and it was going straight.

When I stumbled on the fact, via video, that I had stopped SWINGING the club and was more moving it and manipulating it, I decided to start swinging my arms in a separate fashion to my body (amongst other things I was too narow, too steep and hitting down at the ball rather than swinging my arms on a wide fluid motion through it. But I couldn't do this without rotating my body properly). Now I have a freer arm swing which definately results in more clubhead speed but I was back to slicing it, but powerfully. So I strengthened my grip (clockwise) and now I'm hitting it better than ever. Hands ahead at impact, right out the middle and it proper takes off! Very satisfying but a long, drawn out process!!!!

My point is that in this unnaturally physical act of swinging a club the body will always do things in groups of two. If you have a fault, your body/brain will try to compensate by adding another fault to counteract it. So if you change something, look for the countering change to get full appreciation of what your trying to accomplish. In my case, it was the type of rotation (or lack of it!) vs what grip I was using.

Not sure if this helps or whether I've just rambled, but happy to continue the conversation. I love golf!

[snake]

Re: Lets Talk: Rotation

Thanks Neil,
Of course you are right about strong / weak grips.
I meant moving to the right not left....my lazy brain again !
I am so interested in your post.
When I read it I think it was written about me, except the part where you found a solution and a happy ending.
I have always thought that a neutral grip was best and to play good golf that was a prerequisite.
I used to play with a powerful draw but now after restarting golf after a 5yr "rest" & now that I've turned 40yr I think my poor technique cannot be compensated by youth & ability !
So now I want to correct many flaws, engrained over 20years of golf.
Rotation at impact is a big one and avoiding flipping wrists.
When I try this I tend to get a weak, choppy cut/block.
Strenthening my grip may be a solution.....what do you think ?

[Neil18]

Re: Lets Talk: Rotation

There could be so many things. If you've got the functionality to put a swing video of yourself on here it would be a huge help. I wish I could do it too. Hoping to get a PC literate camcorder for Xmas. Then I could post my swing on here so we could see what I'm talking about. Not that I think my swing's the greateset, but I like it!

I found that my choppyness (is that a word??!) came from being too narrow. This was probably born out of the whole "wide to narrow backswing to downswing" thing. Truth is, I didn't need to conciously move to narrow my downswing and get lag. It happens naturally. Adding width to my swing was a main concern. I was hitting the mat at the range so often. Even with a 3-wood off the deck. Just a big thud. Horrid. I'd take short fat divots on the course too.

I noticed the other thread you've started today and it may be that I'm talking about stuff that belongs in there. I'll carry on here though cos I've started, so I'll finish

I treat body turn and arms swing as two separate entities. I think I hinted at this earlier in this thread. David Leadbetter always tries to convey the swing as the synchronous blending of body turn and arms swing. That, to me, says they are separate. I believe Mr Leadbetter! For my swing it's all about getting the right movements in the right order. My arms are the first thing to move - as a unit - no wrist cocking etc. My left hand gets past my right thigh and then my torso starts to rotate against my hips. I suppose I could say my body kinda pulls my hips round. If I'm gonna keep maximum torsion between top and bottom half, conciously moving my hips reduces it.

To help my arm swing continue in the direction on which it has started (low and wide) I put a club down across my toes and think of swinging my hands straight along that line whilst my body continues to turn. Still no concious wrist cock. This should lead your hands to be outside the clubhead in the mirror (if there is one where you practice!).

Once I get halfway back I'm settling my weight into the inside of my right foot and resisting hip turn. This might be why I overswing sometimes. My hips go. If they go, my body could go all John Daly! To keep my swing wide, on plane and as short as possible I have to cup my left wrist. Works for me. Cupping keeps my stronger grip square. My grip isn't what I would term completely strong, but it is stronger than neutral. Personally I get laid off at the top if I have a flat left wrist and this also leads to me over swinging. In comparison to how I used to swing (flat as a pancake) it feels like my club is over my head. As long as my hands are not behind my shoulder in the mirror, then that's fine.

My full wrist cock doesn't happen until I start down, sometimes not until my belly, really maximising the lag. I don't make a concious effort to drop my hands/arms, I just swing through the ball with no effort in my wrists. The key to creating my lag and maintaining clubhead speed is what somebody else in this forum referred to as "posting up" on the left leg. A good term. unless I move toward standing on my left leg, I lose balance. Also, this shifts my centre back toward the ball (having turned behind it fully) and hence narrows the downsing arc. Kinda logical really. As long as I keep my balance, I can rip the club through as hard as I like with my arms (not my hands!). If I don't keep my balance, the ball could go anywhere! Sometimes "keep your balance" is a good swingthought for me. It's not technical or limiting and focuses on a very important part of my swing - the stability.

Wide fluid arm swing against a small compact body turn works for me.

Ok, my fingers are bleeding and I'm hungry.....................God I go on don't I???

[shootin4par]

Re: Lets Talk: Rotation

good topic pnearm,
but I dont feel I have much to offer on the subject because when my backswing feels good my downswing is automatic. Keeping the backswing on plane is my issue

[wildwilly911]

Re: Lets Talk: Rotation

wow and they wonder why handie caps don't go down, every body get to caught up in all the perfect swing, tell me who has the perfect swing. come on tell me

[shootin4par]

Re: Lets Talk: Rotation

wow and they wonder why handie caps don't go down, every body get to caught up in all the perfect swing, tell me who has the perfect swing. come on tell me

he who enjoys golf the most has the best swing