Swing, Driver

[Martin Levac]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2W2m5sn0xY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62XKd0EIitg

Comments welcome. Disregard video quality for the moment.


Martin Levac

[wildwilly911]

Re: Swing, Driver

nice one you turned a 300 yard hole into a 400 yarder.

[Martin Levac]

Re: Swing, Driver

nice one you turned a 300 yard hole into a 400 yarder.

What do you mean?

[Neil18]

Re: Swing, Driver

He obviously doesn't know what he means...................

[Neil18]

Re: Swing, Driver

Martin,

Seeing as nobody else wants to look at it I thought I'd put your swing clip on my camera for a look at it in slow-motion.

Not bad at all sir. I presume you're going for a rotary/one plane style swing?

I'm guessing that your bad shots are either a high push or a low hook? Reason I'm guessing is that the video isn't of greatest qualty as you said, but have a look at where your tee goes! It shoots out of frame almost straight right!

To support my comment, I see that your takeaway is employing a lot of wrist roll in the first few feet which takes the club back severely to the inside. You do well at rescuing it on the downswing, bringing it back to the inside, but again too much (hence the tee comment above!) but I'm guessing again that you used to have an "over the top" style pull/slice problem and this is what you've done to cure it.

If I was to look at you over the course of a few weeks your best golf would probably be when you can time your wrist action through the ball. When you don't that's when you push it (not enough wrist action) or hook it (too much).

I suggest at first killing your wrist action to keep the club on a more consistent, slightly more upright (but still one plane) swing.

What do you think?

[Martin Levac]

Re: Swing, Driver

Hi Neil18, thanks for the reply.

I like using my wrists like that, it makes me feel like I'm in complete control of the club. It doesn't hurt to try though so I'll do that and see what gives. About the takeaway to the inside, I am currently working on that because I noticed it myself and I don't like the way I do it now. I'm trying to bring the club up on the same plane as the downswing so that I have as little as possible that can go wrong.


Martin Levac

[Neil18]

Re: Swing, Driver

Cool. You'll probably find that the better you get your plane, the less you'll need to use your wrists to feel in control.

Infact, try the old "gain control by giving up control" theory. You may be surprised at the results.

Hope all goes well.

[GoNavy]

Re: Swing, Driver

Ok you wanted me post on this thread, here is what I think...your camera man sucks.

[BrianW]

Re: Swing, Driver

On the first video the ball appears to almost shank to the right. maybe it's the camera angle though.

[Martin Levac]

Re: Swing, Driver

Note the comments to the right of each video for details concerning contact, distance and accuracy.

The cameraman does suck but I think he did a good job considering the equipment he used and the circumstances the videos were taken in. There was little preparation.

I will point out that I take very little time in preparing myself before a shot as you can see in both clips. I don't clutter my mind with technical aspects, instead I focus on the target and on making proper contact. That is also how and what I practice.

[Jeff Mann]

Re: Swing, Driver

Martin - here are my personal opinions regarding your swing.


I think that you have one major fault that I do not necessarily believe you consciously choose as a personal swing "peculiarity".

Starting with your backswing.

See - http://jeffmann.net/MartinBS.jpg

Image 1 - your address position is OK with a good spine angle of 29 degrees. I personally think that your legs are too rigidly straight with insufficient knee flex.

Image 2 - I personally think that you roll your wrists too much during the takeaway and that your hands get back too far behind you by the three quarter position. I would prefer to see your hands opposite your right upper chest, rather than behind your torso, at this point.

Image 3 - I think that you turn your shoulders too horizontally, instead of turning them perpendicularly to the bent-over spine, and that causes your left shoulder to jam against your chin thus impeding your shoulder turn. I also don't like the fact that you allow your right knee to straighten.

Now if you argue that all those minor "faults" are not really faults because you choose to swing that way, I won't contest that attitude because you end up in a good end-backswing position, and you start the downswing very well.

Now consider your downswing.

See - http://jeffmann.net/MartinDS.jpg

Image 1 - I very much like your transition move and you start the downswing with a good lower body move, and you get to an excellent position when your left arm is parallel to the ground - the butt end of your club points at the ball-target line.

Image 2 and 3 - I like the way your early downswing evolves and you get to the "delivery position" (defined as the downswing point where the hands are along the toe line, and the clubshaft is parallel to the ball-target line and also parallel to the ground) in a good position. I like the fact that your clubshaft is coming from behind the hands, and that your subsequent downswing clubhead movement can be along a shallow, inside-track towards the ball. Samson72 should mimic your early downswing move, because his OTT move gets his clubshaft above his hands, instead of behind his hands, and his subsequent clubhead path becomes too steep and too outside-in.

Image 4 - This is where your major fault occurs. Your shoulder turn is too horizontal (instead of being perpendicular to your spine) and your right shoulder jams against your chin. That prevents your right shoulder from continuing to flow smoothly through the peri-impact phase of the swing into the followthrough phase. Note that your upper body comes to a near-complete stop (which can be seen if you study your swing video repeatedly) when your right shoulder jams aginst your chin. However, you cannot stop your arms from moving and they whip rapidly past your slowed-down torso, and that causes your right forearm to rapidly flip over the left forearm. Note that your right hand is completely pronated over your left (supinated) hand in the early followthrough, and that your clubface is facing the ground.

Image 5 - I have included Aaron Baddeley's swing for comparison. Note that Aaron Baddeley has a steeper shoulder turn than you, because he turns his shoulders perpendicularly around his bent-over spine. That allows his right shoulder to go under his chin without any impedance. Note that the toe of his club is pointing straight up at this point in the followthrough, which proves that he didn't manipulate his wrists/hands or roll over his forearms during the peri-impact phase of the swing.

Now, let's presume that you argue that you deliberately turn your shoulders horizontally, and deliberately jam your right shoulder against your chin, so that you can slow your torso movement - in order to facilitate the forearm flipping movement. Is that a consciously chosen "peculiarity" or a fundamental fault? You have previously argued that you can personally adopt any swing "peculiarity" as long as it has its intended effect - a good ball flight. I will not contest that attitude, but I cannot readily understand how flipping the forearms through the peri-impact phase of the golf swing is a good personal swing choice - because it happens so fast that it is difficult to be consistent from swing swing-to-swing. In this particular swing, you pushed the ball to the right, because your torso slowed down when your right shoulder jammed against your chin, and your forearms didn't square the clubface during the forearm rolling phenemenon. You therefore hit the ball with an open face. I suspect that sometimes you hit the ball with a closed face, because the forearm flipping phenomenon occurs too abruptly and too soon causing the clubface to be closed at impact. Most PGA tour players avoid any active forearm flipping during the peri-impact phase of the golf swing because they know that it is near-impossible to flip one's forearms consistently from swing-to-swing. Most PGA tour players have neutral hands/wrists, that are entirely passive during the peri-impact phase of the golf swing, and they square the clubface at impact by total body timing, which is much easier. See my chapter on impact at http://jeffmann.net/impact.htm

I would be interested in learning whether you, and other forum members, think that your forearm flipping action is a good personal swing choice ("peculiarity") or a fundamental fault, that occurs secondary to your right shoulder unintentionally jamming against your chin.

Jeff.

[Martin Levac]

Re: Swing, Driver

There are two clips, each with a different result. In clip 1 (face on), I made contact dead center and I sent the ball ~220 yards straight to my target. In clip 2 (down the line), I also made contact dead center but sent the ball ~240 yards, ~30 yards right of my target in a straight line, a push. Generally, I was more in control in clip 1 than in clip 2.

Unlike a great number of players, I apply force, I propel the club, with my arms, not with my lower body or core whatever that is. That means that the terms coil and unwind, the concepts of hip rotation and whatnot to produce power, don't apply to me. At least not in the sense of producing power. Leslie King's lessons teach this concept of swinging the hands while moving the body to support or allow this motion of the hands. A free swing of the hands and arms as it's called in those lessons.

So anyway, as it applies to my arms flipping past impact like that, it's intended. I accelerate my hands toward impact mainly by applying force with my right arm. I say mainly because I apply force with both arms, just more with the right arm. I'm right handed, I control the club mainly with my right hand and apply force to the club mainly with my right arm. In other words, I concentrate control and force to my right arm and hand. This allows me to be much more precise with the club than if I were to concentrate control and force to other parts of my body. The shoulders for example.

I found a link to several physics models. Included in those models were a single pendulum and a double pendulum. Anyway, it's much easier to control a single pendulum than a double pendulum. In the double pendulum, one must control the primary pendulum to move the secondary pendulum. Indirect control. Passive arms. So it is with the hands, arms, shoulders, hips. I have primary control of the club with my hands, I don't want to swing with passive arms.

Perhaps I'd produce more power by propelling the club with the rest of my body or by applying this technique or that? 200 yards is ample enough to suit my purpose, I don't want more power. What I do want is more precision and that can only be acquired through extensive practice.

It's like this. So you sent your ball 300 yards down the fairway and you're left with 150 to the hole. What do you want right now? The answer is not power. So I sent my ball 225 yards down the fairway exactly to my target and I'm left with another 225 yards to my target. I just want what I already have and that is precision.

That's a long list of faults. Yet I made contact dead center. Based on the result, I conclude that I have no fault. There is one thing I want to change, it's the backswing plane. I want to bring the club back on the same plane as the downswing so I do as few motions that can go wrong. I'm satisfied with the appearance although I consider that a side effect.

You see, there's a very long list of techniques that are guaranteed to produce more power, the good list. The list of techniques that are guaranteed to produce more accuracy is empty. Unless we speak of contact. But that isn't a technique, it's the purpose of the golf swing. That which the golf swing is intended to produce. Or practice but that isn't a technique either, it's just repetition, systematic repetition.

There's the other list, the bad list, the list of faults. That list is even bigger than the good list, the power list. The fault list is so big, it even includes things from the good list. Many things, things that are supposed to guarantee more power.

And the last list, my favorite, the list of results. There are only 9 items in that list and my favorite of those is straight to my target.

In my mind, there is no good list, there is no bad list, there is only the list of results. There is a list of techniques, not good or bad, just techniques. From my perspective, I have no fault. From your perspective, I have a list of faults. Perhaps you should trust my judgement when it comes to my personal experience and simply accept that what you see on the video has produced the intended result. If you do trust my judgement, there's no telling what you will learn.

Look at the videos one more time. According to your analysis, I'm doing all kinds of wrong things. I must be doing something right if I make contact dead center. What am doing right that I must do right, otherwise I can't possibly make contact dead center?

[Jeff Mann]

Re: Swing, Driver

Martin -- you write "So anyway, as it applies to my arms flipping past impact like that, it's intended. I accelerate my hands toward impact mainly by applying force with my right arm. I say mainly because I apply force with both arms, just more with the right arm. I'm right handed, I control the club mainly with my right hand and apply force to the club mainly with my right arm. In other words, I concentrate control and force to my right arm and hand. This allows me to be much more precise with the club than if I were to concentrate control and force to other parts of my body."

OK. That makes your swing more understandable to me. It also means that the "faults" that I mentioned are not really faults.

When I saw your right shoulder jammed against your chin in the downswing, I interpreted it as being due to a slowing down of your body rotation through the shot, which causes your arms to flip over as they pass the slowed-down body. However, you state that you are an "arm swinger" with a major emphasis on the right arm, and that you don't primarily swing with your body. That better explains what is happening in your downswing. From the delivery position, you intentionally think of hitting with your right arm and you don't think of your central body. Therefore, the fact that your right shoulder jams against your chin doesn't bother you because you think that it doesn't affect your ability to square the clubface at impact. You are also not concerned that the forearms flip over, which has to happen if the body doesn't keep moving through the peri-impact zone, because you believe that the club has already hit the ball by that point in time.

I can readily accept the way that you swing a golf club as an alternative method of swinging a golf club (ala the Leslie King method). It also explains your lack of distance with a driver because you only power the swing with your arms, and not your coiled-up body.

I actually prefer an alternative method of hitting a golf club. I like the Ben Hogan/Tiger Woods method, where the uncoiling of the lower body powers the swing and where the arms are passively swung around the rotating body (double pendulum swing model). I think that it is more powerful and also potentially more accurate, because I think that it is easier to square the clubface by getting the body into the correct position at impact than it is to time the arm swing and forearm rollover (when the body is passive and only secondarily reactive). However, although I prefer a different swing model, I respect your alternative golf swing approach, which has a totally different set of fundamentals.

Beginner golfers have to decide which swing model best suits them.

Jeff.

[GoNavy]

Re: Swing, Driver

There are two clips, each with a different result. In clip 1 (face on), I made contact dead center and I sent the ball ~220 yards straight to my target. In clip 2 (down the line), I also made contact dead center but sent the ball ~240 yards, ~30 yards right of my target in a straight line, a push. Generally, I was more in control in clip 1 than in clip 2.

Unlike a great number of players, I apply force, I propel the club, with my arms, not with my lower body or core whatever that is. That means that the terms coil and unwind, the concepts of hip rotation and whatnot to produce power, don't apply to me. At least not in the sense of producing power. Leslie King's lessons teach this concept of swinging the hands while moving the body to support or allow this motion of the hands. A free swing of the hands and arms as it's called in those lessons.

So anyway, as it applies to my arms flipping past impact like that, it's intended. I accelerate my hands toward impact mainly by applying force with my right arm. I say mainly because I apply force with both arms, just more with the right arm. I'm right handed, I control the club mainly with my right hand and apply force to the club mainly with my right arm. In other words, I concentrate control and force to my right arm and hand. This allows me to be much more precise with the club than if I were to concentrate control and force to other parts of my body. The shoulders for example.

I found a link to several physics models. Included in those models were a single pendulum and a double pendulum. Anyway, it's much easier to control a single pendulum than a double pendulum. In the double pendulum, one must control the primary pendulum to move the secondary pendulum. Indirect control. Passive arms. So it is with the hands, arms, shoulders, hips. I have primary control of the club with my hands, I don't want to swing with passive arms.

Perhaps I'd produce more power by propelling the club with the rest of my body or by applying this technique or that? 200 yards is ample enough to suit my purpose, I don't want more power. What I do want is more precision and that can only be acquired through extensive practice.

It's like this. So you sent your ball 300 yards down the fairway and you're left with 150 to the hole. What do you want right now? The answer is not power. So I sent my ball 225 yards down the fairway exactly to my target and I'm left with another 225 yards to my target. I just want what I already have and that is precision.

That's a long list of faults. Yet I made contact dead center. Based on the result, I conclude that I have no fault. There is one thing I want to change, it's the backswing plane. I want to bring the club back on the same plane as the downswing so I do as few motions that can go wrong. I'm satisfied with the appearance although I consider that a side effect.

You see, there's a very long list of techniques that are guaranteed to produce more power, the good list. The list of techniques that are guaranteed to produce more accuracy is empty. Unless we speak of contact. But that isn't a technique, it's the purpose of the golf swing. That which the golf swing is intended to produce. Or practice but that isn't a technique either, it's just repetition, systematic repetition.

There's the other list, the bad list, the list of faults. That list is even bigger than the good list, the power list. The fault list is so big, it even includes things from the good list. Many things, things that are supposed to guarantee more power.

And the last list, my favorite, the list of results. There are only 9 items in that list and my favorite of those is straight to my target.

In my mind, there is no good list, there is no bad list, there is only the list of results. There is a list of techniques, not good or bad, just techniques. From my perspective, I have no fault. From your perspective, I have a list of faults. Perhaps you should trust my judgement when it comes to my personal experience and simply accept that what you see on the video has produced the intended result. If you do trust my judgement, there's no telling what you will learn.

Look at the videos one more time. According to your analysis, I'm doing all kinds of wrong things. I must be doing something right if I make contact dead center. What am doing right that I must do right, otherwise I can't possibly make contact dead center?

You are delusional, there is no way either of the swing in the above video produced anything like you report, after all we have only the poor quality video and your word to prove this, you say center face hits..lol..I did some stop motion on the down the line view, the camera angle had nothing to do with it, the ball went at right of the tee box. Put some impact tape on the face of your club, and lets see an uncut video of you hitting and showing the face of your club, then I'll believe, but until then please don't insult my intelligence with these wild statements of your golfing pros. Which leads me to ask, why are you even here, if you have it figured out already, because what you are advocating won't help anybody, it WILL do more damage then HELP, trust me on this, I have doing this for 40 years and teaching for over 20 years. So please...you can bullsh&^t an ameturer, not a professional.

[GoNavy]

Re: Swing, Driver

Unlike a great number of players, I apply force, I propel the club, with my arms, not with my lower body or core whatever that is. That means that the terms coil and unwind, the concepts of hip rotation and whatnot to produce power, don't apply to me. At least not in the sense of producing power. Leslie King's lessons teach this concept of swinging the hands while moving the body to support or allow this motion of the hands. A free swing of the hands and arms as it's called in those lessons.

Also please don't butcher Leslie Kings concept by saying the arms play an entire roll and the body just follows, that is not was King teaches, read again. The downswing starts with the feet.

http://www.golfpro-online.com/tuition/lking/three.html

I quote:
The Most Common Problem In Golf

All poor players, without exception, start the downswing by turning the shoulders first, while the feet remain static. This, of course, throws the club out of line from the top, and any possibility of a correct downswing is instantly ruined

In fact, in a correct downswing, the body should unwind from the feet…….up. This means that the feet and legs should come into play first with the shoulders unwinding last! In other words, the shoulder line must never run ahead of the hip line in the downswing.

end quote.