shoulder plane / tilt set up

[jamesh]

Re: shoulder plane / tilt set up

bdbl,
if you focus on balance and learn to keep in balance then you never have to worry about tempo, Hogan stated that he did not give much thought to tempo, but he did talk about the importance of balance

Shootin4par have you seen Jim Mcleans DVD on Ben Hogan? If you haven't it is pretty good and readily available on peer to peer networks.

James

[shootin4par]

Re: shoulder plane / tilt set up

Shootin4par have you seen Jim Mcleans DVD on Ben Hogan? If you haven't it is pretty good and readily available on peer to peer networks.

James

Yeah, I have the video. He had a great swing and swung very fast and very hard but stayed in balance. I thought it was amazing he could go at it so hard.

[shootin4par]

Re: shoulder plane / tilt set up

Shootin, I think Robin is correct we are saying a similar thing in different ways. I am referring to Tempo as the speed of a swing and Rhythm as the ratio between back and down swings. To be in balance you must have a good rhythm, tempo does not affect it.

Yes, I do believe they all go hand in hand. For ME it is more natural to focus on balance because I have been focusing on that my whole life, subconsciously, since I was trying to learn how to walk. So I feel all I have to do is tap into the natural subconscious. I never really focused on my pace of walking, or the rhythm.

[Timothy Slaught]

Re: shoulder plane / tilt set up

Hello All:

Spine tilt away from the target is imperative. The first thing a teaching pro will do after checking your grip is look at your set-up and most poor players set-up with no tilt. There is less tilt on the shorter clubs and progressively more as you move to the longer clubs in a good set-up position. The feeling should be that of having your left hip slightly higher than your right.

To "get over" the yips with driver, I recommend trying to hit your driver at the range into an area about 200 yards out within a target width of 30 yards. This will keep you focused on making a smooth swing and not trying to get every last inch out of the shot. The driver is the only club in the bag that we feel the need to hit as far as humanly possible therefor it creates that added stress. If you can smooth it to 200 yards with consistency on the range when you get to the course your added adrenaline will move it well past 200. The idea is to practice a smooth controlable action. Swinging at 110% on the range and adjusting to hit it straight is not a realistic or productive practice methid. In fact it may be the worst thing possible for your game.

[BrianW]

Re: shoulder plane / tilt set up

Yes, I do believe they all go hand in hand. For ME it is more natural to focus on balance because I have been focusing on that my whole life, subconsciously, since I was trying to learn how to walk. So I feel all I have to do is tap into the natural subconscious. I never really focused on my pace of walking, or the rhythm.

Shootin,

Lets not get into semantics and patronisation please?

I am not refering to walking, I am talking about swinging a golf club around the body! As I previously suggested, most peoples tempo in the golf swing is related to their natural, personal tempo.

I would not agree that rhythm in a golfer's swing is an area to be ignored because people have mastered it as children when walking, the rhythm of your walking pace is more important than the tempo, how well would you walk if one leg moved faster than the other.

When I observe golf swings I find that many high handicappers have poor rhythm, a significant factor in creating imbalance and poor ball striking.

[shootin4par]

Re: shoulder plane / tilt set up

Brain,
I dont mind discussions at all. I am also not offended at all by this discussion nor was I at any time trying to offend or patronize (sp?)
In every motion of sports I have done my body seeks balance and I believe this goes back to the simple act of learning balance as a child. that is my view, belief. Your view is rhythm and tempo, while I believe balance takes care of that, you see differently, ok so be it. No worries, it is all good.
good luck in the search.

[BrianW]

Re: shoulder plane / tilt set up

Brain,
I dont mind discussions at all. I am also not offended at all by this discussion nor was I at any time trying to offend or patronize (sp?)
In every motion of sports I have done my body seeks balance and I believe this goes back to the simple act of learning balance as a child. that is my view, belief. Your view is rhythm and tempo, while I believe balance takes care of that, you see differently, ok so be it. No worries, it is all good.
good luck in the search.

Shootin,

Thank you for your frank reply.

[Simon Woo]

Re: shoulder plane / tilt set up

Shootin you forgot to look at the other end of the scale. What if someone was swinging way too slowly? Surely good balance is very possible here, but not enough tempo to produce a good shot

I think the first step towards good tempo (since most who don't have it tend to swing too fast than too slow), is to feel that pause (and coil) at the top of your backswing.

[Scragger63]

Re: shoulder plane / tilt set up

Howdy, having read through this thread a couple of times, I thought I'd offer my 10cents worth...

I was reading a golf web page somewhere the other day and it referred to Rythym & Tempo as being intrinsically linked, whilst being notionally different. Strange, but true... (cue X-Files theme music now...!!!)

To me, this is a little bit like the whole "chicken/egg" discussion. You can't have one without the other and it is a simple matter of never being able to agree which "came first" (read "which is more important")

From my own perspective, I know I keep telling myself to "swing easy" (which I guess for me translates to somewhere around 80 - 90 %) and I also know that when I pick up my driver, it doesn't matter what I tell myself, I always ignore me...

Now, back to the point of bdbl's original post... Shoulder tilt...

I remember that one time back in early 1990-something that I actually had a lesson, the pro told me the only thing he would change in my swing after watching me hit a dozen or so balls was that he wanted me to conciously tilt my upper body (using the hips as a notional pivot point, if that makes sense) away from the target.

So, it was take my address position, then move my shoulders an inch (can't remember now the exact advice) or so back/away from the target. Giving the feeling that my left hip (yes, I'm a right hander) was fractionally higher than my right.

Why he wanted me to do this, I'm sorry to say, I can't honestly remember, but, I still do it. And, so long as I don't swing "hard", I hit my full shots reasonably straight. Well, to an acceptable level for me at least.

My troubles start, as I have said before, when I get inside 100m. I also feel that my golfing woes are more a matter of lack of practice time, and given that each round I play, I consider as a practice round for the next time I play, I guess I have to accept the fact that I may well never become a household name on the PGA tour...

Allow me to say here (and apologise ahead of time if I am now getting too far off topic) that I really enjoy visiting this forum and reading through the various threads. Thank you one and all for your various inputs...

This is one great site and I have recommended it to all of my golfing partners/acquaintences at every opportunity...

Cheers

[BrianW]

Re: shoulder plane / tilt set up

We have strayed into a different but slightly related subject, apologies to Robin (Bdbl) who posted the original thread. However it is an interesting subject worthy of debate.

There are three subject matters here and although all intrinsically linked are different. They are Balance, Tempo and Rhythm. All three are important factors in creating good ball striking.

If one is not in balance through the golf swing it will be difficult to make good repeatable ball contact. Balance in the swing is created (IMO) through posture and good swing mechanics.

Tempo is the speed of the swing, the speed at which a golfer makes their swing. This is very much linked to an individuals personality and difficult to change. Most beginners feel a need through misunderstanding to swing too fast, they eventually settle on a tempo that they are comfortable with.

Rhythm is the "Beat" of a swing, the relationship between a back and down swing, better golfers produce a rhythm where the two elements are well synchronised and become close. If someone has a 20 MPH backswing they will need an 80 MPH downswing to compensate and achieve reasonable distance. Likewise an 80 MPH backswing would need to slow down to around 20 MPH through the ball to achieve some form of control over the shot.

Great golf players will have good balance, an individual tempo and good rhythm.

[bdbl]

Re: shoulder plane / tilt set up

From my point of view though an excellent diversion into an area that is possibly key to my problems and progress.

As someone who has always swung too fast - I have a rushing, fidgety temperament anyway - over the last couple of years and this one particularly, I have made a conscious effort to slow down.

On a good day this produces much better controlled mid /short irons. I've lost distance but have fewer bad shots and they don't do as much damage to my score as they once did.

I'm not sure that I'll explain this too well but my question is, whether it is possible to over do the slow down?

When playing well with the irons because I feel balanced there doesn't seem a huge difference between backswing and downswing speeds - though presumably there must be to get some kind of distance on the shot.

With the woods I rarely get that balanced feeling and I'm wondering if its anything to do with a mismatch between the slow iron tempo backswing and a faster downswing - and that to get some rhythm back I might actually need to speed up the backswing to a more natural tempo rather than overdoing the "like an 8I" swing thought.

[BrianW]

Re: shoulder plane / tilt set up

From my point of view though an excellent diversion into an area that is possibly key to my problems and progress.

As someone who has always swung too fast - I have a rushing, fidgety temperament anyway - over the last couple of years and this one particularly, I have made a conscious effort to slow down.

On a good day this produces much better controlled mid /short irons. I've lost distance but have fewer bad shots and they don't do as much damage to my score as they once did.

I'm not sure that I'll explain this too well but my question is, whether it is possible to over do the slow down?

When playing well with the irons because I feel balanced there doesn't seem a huge difference between backswing and downswing speeds - though presumably there must be to get some kind of distance on the shot.

With the woods I rarely get that balanced feeling and I'm wondering if its anything to do with a mismatch between the slow iron tempo backswing and a faster downswing - and that to get some rhythm back I might actually need to speed up the backswing to a more natural tempo rather than overdoing the "like an 8I" swing thought.

Hi Robin,

I can see you are suffering a lack of confidence with your woods, through past experience I know what this is like and how it can dampen enthusiasm and be self perpetuating.

What exactly is going wrong with your woods? are you topping, hitting thick, lacking distance, sliceing, hooking?

Lets see what we can improve but first let's understand the problem.

By the way your Latin Quote "Where there is faith, there is light and strength" is that related to football?

[bdbl]

Re: shoulder plane / tilt set up

Hi Brian

Long story, and a long post.

Hi Robin,
What exactly is going wrong with your woods? are you topping, hitting thick, lacking distance, sliceing?

Yes.

Seriously though it began 3 or 4 years ago - around the time I started taking the game seriously rather than going out for a laugh two or three times a year - with the occasional erratic severe sharp pull that would shoot off along the ground at an acute angle.

Previously I had reasonable enough (220/230 3w) distance with the odd slice as the error shot. Over the years it has got worse especially under (self imposed?) pressure like the 1st tee at a posh club with a snooty marshall, or the 18th level with my best mate and he's just creamed one - to the state where I stood on the tee almost scared to swing because I didn't know what was going to happen - or rather I did.

So halfway through this summer I took a different, Aftford inspired, approach and decided just to play the shots I could play rather than the ones I wanted to play.

Using a lofted rescue wood from the tee (170-180), working on my iron rhythm, and improving my course management I've gone from scoring in the 105 - 115 range to mid nineties with a best 9 (last week) of 44 - so its not all doom and gloom but that missing 50yds means that a) I am very dependent on a short game to score even as I do and b) with it I could be in the 80's.

Hence I've decided to spend some time on the range working on the woods - but, as you will have gathered, to no avail.

I suspect that I'm just trying too damned hard but over to you and the otehr good people on here.

Hi Robin,
"Where there is faith, there is light and strength" is that related to football?

Its the motto of Tranmere Rovers FC and of the town of Birkenhead; the picture with my posts is of Steve "Goal Machine" Yates scoring in Tranmere's FA Cup triumph at Goodison.

Robin

[BrianW]

Re: shoulder plane / tilt set up

Robin,

So the main improvement would be losing the slice and gaining distance and fairways?

[bdbl]

Re: shoulder plane / tilt set up

Brian

Sorry, I obviously didn't make myself clear - I'd kill to have that slice back, at least I'd be away from the tee and could try and play with it.

Unfortunately on the course the once occasional severe pull is now almost inevitable which is why I no longer use the woods.

On the range because I'm fiddling about there is a variety of problems, a "clunky" hit with lack of distance being the most frustrating because it seems so close to a good shot.

Perhaps I should describe the problem shot.

Walk forward 20 yards and then left 30 yards, draw a line back to the tee, that's the angle of my shot; it might go further left if it wasn't in the rough, or trees or water or hadn't just rolled along the ground.

I've been to a pro who told me that I was coming across the ball with a square to closed face - well yes, I knew that but he didn't tell me how to stop it.

I should say that most of the time I don't have the same problem with the other clubs, which is were we came in.