Greg Norman's "secret"

[GregJWillis]

Re: Greg Norman's "secret"

Hope you don't mind me going over this again?

Not at all. This is why this site is here!

I have questioned it before but still do not completely follow the logic. I can see that it is possible to hold an angle in the right wrist at impact, but it must be accompanied by either very open shoulders or a very bent right arm(or both). I do not subscribe to this as a preferred way to strike a ball.

Very open shoulders are probably an overkill (but if you look at my wall/impact drill, I try to get you to stretch to a completely open position), but having them at least "open" means that you have made more rotation through the ball rather then just the arm/hand attack at it.

If the poor pivot is the problem would it not be best to try and fix that?

Defiantly, fix that first. The flipping of the hands is probably a counter to that problem. Funny though, if you fix the RP, you will find the hands are still tuned to flipping, so the tendency would be to hook the ball...and then you will still have to learn to stop flipping -- the cupped right hand again keeps it straight.

I accept that I may be wrong here but I have the type of analytical mind that will not rest on something until I have resolved the issue.

Here is the reason for the big emphasis on this cupped RH: Any action you make in that hinge (side-to-side) means you are now opening up a potential for mistiming. If you are good at it and have this tuned...then great. This feels comfortable, and changing it means you have to change something else (like you are experiencing now) -- the open shoulders. So, I suggest you keep your swing. I teach this method because it really is accurate. You do not loose power because you are still hinging the wrists (up/dn) and that is a powerful feeling...all the student has to get over is the way the hinge goes.

[BrianW]

Re: Greg Norman's "secret"

Thanks Greg.

[BrianW]

Re: Greg Norman's "secret"

Greg,

Following this discussion I remembered something that Hogan spoke about with the left wrist. I dug out his book and read it again after some time, he states that the left wrist joint be pushed forward just before impact to stop flipping and create a lower ball flight that maintains spin with greater distance, due to the clubface being de-lofted a bit. He talks about Supination of the left wrist.

I guess this is something similar to your right hand drill?

[GregJWillis]

Re: Greg Norman's "secret"

Yes, sure a flat left wrist (even buldged out slightly) will force the right hand to maintain the cup.

[pnearn]

Re: Greg Norman's "secret"

Heres my 2c

This device is training you to keep a flat left wrist through the BS as mich aas it is keeping it flat down into impact. A flat left wrist keeps the club on plane all through the swing all allows for the hands to lead the clubhead into the ball naturally

If your left wrist is in a good position at the top, the DS should be almost automatic

Heres a great example. Look at this pic of Tiger half way back

I feel like this goes wrong early. If I look at this pic of Tiger halfway back

http://www.oneplanegolfswing.com/one...ng-halfway.jpg

His left wrist has remained flat, which has cupped the right wrist, set the club up and got it right on plane. If your left wrist wasnt still flat here the club would be in a different position (i.e. way inside or still horizontal) and the swings got off already. Take that flat wrist to the top and you get that great 'laid off' look 3/4 back with the left wrist perfectly in line with your forearm

[Rackster]

Re: Greg Norman's "secret"

Heres my 2c

This device is training you to keep a flat left wrist through the BS as mich aas it is keeping it flat down into impact. A flat left wrist keeps the club on plane all through the swing all allows for the hands to lead the clubhead into the ball naturally

If your left wrist is in a good position at the top, the DS should be almost automatic

Heres a great example. Look at this pic of Tiger half way back

I feel like this goes wrong early. If I look at this pic of Tiger halfway back

http://www.oneplanegolfswing.com/one...ng-halfway.jpg

His left wrist has remained flat, which has cupped the right wrist, set the club up and got it right on plane. If your left wrist wasnt still flat here the club would be in a different position (i.e. way inside or still horizontal) and the swings got off already. Take that flat wrist to the top and you get that great 'laid off' look 3/4 back with the left wrist perfectly in line with your forearm

PNEARN

That is a great image of Tiger, and it is his swing today as developed under Haney.

I've read Haney's book, and he has a clear opinion on the swing plane. He says Hogan's plane principle was wrong and also other instructors have got it wrong. For instance, Leadbetter would recommend in the position Tiger is in here that the shaft points in between the ball and the feet. Tiger's postion here is parallel to the original shaft plane and points outside of the ball. Haney recommends that the swing plane is based on the shaft plane at address, rather than having two planes -upright on the backswing and flatter on the downswing- like Leadbetter.

Who is right, who knows?

[james.welsh]

Re: Greg Norman's "secret"

My understanding of swatting or casting is it is more a symptom of deceleration in the swing.

If you decelerate -- or actually do not continue to accelerate -- through the swing, your club will tend to overtake your hands.

If the angular motion of your hands arms, club and club head are all in synch i.e. "in tempo" you cannot cast the club. I'd bet your wrists simply aren't strong enough on their own to make a club swat as the club is moving through the swing path. They might add a bit but just take a club and hold it out and try to swat the club in the motion we're describing. It actually takes a considerable amount of effort. And that's a stationery club with no inertia built up from being in motion.

Imagine a pendulum. From a physics point of view it's the same sort of motion. If the motion at the centre stops suddenly, the pendulum keeps moving due to its own inertia. Same thing with swatting / casting.

If you want to stop casting, swing faster! And get a copy of Tour Tempo from the library.

My 2¢.

[pnearn]

Re: Greg Norman's "secret"

BTW instead of buying a secret why not just tape a spatula to your right arm like this guy has

http://www.golfdigest.co.za/images/w...reaking80a.jpg

And ensure your right hand stays touching the spatula from the takeaway to the follow through

[BrianW]

Re: Greg Norman's "secret"

Yes, sure a flat left wrist (even buldged out slightly) will force the right hand to maintain the cup.

Greg,

At last the penny has dropped. Sorry for being a bit thick on this subject but at long last I have clarified the concept of the pronated right wrist supporting the left through impact. I have used the "Ice hockey stick" push through action for a time to create additional lag and this was clouding my understanding.

Paul's spatula helped as well.

[Rackster]

Re: Greg Norman's "secret"

BTW instead of buying a secret why not just tape a spatula to your right arm like this guy has

http://www.golfdigest.co.za/images/w...reaking80a.jpg

And ensure your right hand stays touching the spatula from the takeaway to the follow through

That image is a great help as well.

When I put my secret on I can't get it to fit to my full hand and wrist at once at address otherwise I would be see my finger nails on my right hand.

But I can mould by wrist and hand to the Secret once I start cocking my wrists on the takeway, like shown in the spatula image.

[pnearn]

Re: Greg Norman's "secret"

PNEARN

That is a great image of Tiger, and it is his swing today as developed under Haney.

I've read Haney's book, and he has a clear opinion on the swing plane. He says Hogan's plane principle was wrong and also other instructors have got it wrong. For instance, Leadbetter would recommend in the position Tiger is in here that the shaft points in between the ball and the feet. Tiger's postion here is parallel to the original shaft plane and points outside of the ball. Haney recommends that the swing plane is based on the shaft plane at address, rather than having two planes -upright on the backswing and flatter on the downswing- like Leadbetter.

Who is right, who knows?

Good question but one thing thats overlooked is that the left forearm must rotate to keep that left wrist flat. My guess a lot of this confusion about when and where the club is halfway back is to do with when certain players/instructors choose to rotate that left forearm and set the club up. I like to feel its gradual and monitor my left wrist position so I try and be in the position Tiger is in there with my left wrist flat, the forearm facing forward, and the club set vertically halfway back. Perhaps others like more/less forearm rotation earlier/later.

Im not sure it matters all that much as long as the FLW is there at the top and on plane with the left forearm

When I first started doing this my left wrist 'felt' bowed with my right hand facing the sky in the 'waiter tray' position. Felt really strange to start with but thr reasults were immediate and now it feels so natural I can feel at the top if its not right and you can even play about with cupping or bowing to affect ball flight

[BrianW]

Re: Greg Norman's "secret"

That Tiger image showing the halfway back position from the side is spot on for me. The shaft angle is aligned with the right forearm, the clubface is pointing straight forward and square to the body, the projected shaft direction points somewhere between the ball and feet.

[Rackster]

Re: Greg Norman's "secret"

Good question but one thing thats overlooked is that the left forearm must rotate to keep that left wrist flat. My guess a lot of this confusion about when and where the club is halfway back is to do with when certain players/instructors choose to rotate that left forearm and set the club up. I like to feel its gradual and monitor my left wrist position so I try and be in the position Tiger is in there with my left wrist flat, the forearm facing forward, and the club set vertically halfway back. Perhaps others like more/less forearm rotation earlier/later.

I agree with this left arm rotation. I had read a bit of Haney's book on the weekend and he mentioned about the left arm rotating on the takeaway, so you keep the club face square to the swing path. I did this at the weekend for 9 holes (too wet in the UK at the mo to bother with 18 IMO), I hit 7 greens in reg and hit 5 out of 7 fairways- bearing in mid the 1st hole was a of warm up (scuffed tee shot). But I am not getting too carried away as on a winter tees, as I did n't hit more than a 7 iron into the green

[Renton405]

Re: Greg Norman's "secret"

Thank you for your comments.

I think the left wrist should have the same slight bow in it as it had at address right throughout the swing. The same with the right wrist at impact.

No, this is the worst ever.. it is extremely important the left wrist is flat and the right wrist is cupped.. When you come on the downswing you should see only one knuckle on your left hand, any more and your wrists have broken and your swing is ruined..

[Renton405]

Re: Greg Norman's "secret"

Peoples swing aren't the same..Backswings mostly that is..

But when it comes to the downswing it all changes I think..

look at the impact position of all the pros .. they nearly all look alike..flat left wrist, cupped right wrist, hands ahead of club, hips already almost turned fully to the flagstick.. this should tell people something..