Ok, so you say hips first..

[SevenBall]

Hi,

Sorry to ask so many questions, but you get a good response on here..

Now everyone agrees that hips start the downswing with a bump forward then rotation.. But, all I get from doing this is both my arm's moving downwards.. I don't get that full body *crunching* look say Tiger and Hogan get..

Whats up with that? Whats the feel I am looking for with the upper body?

Thanks

[cyc53870]

Re: Ok, so you say hips first..

I did some research on several golf websites and archives as well and after a couple of hours work I think I have the secret to the holy grail of golf... Now anyone can swing like the pros!

Apparently the downswing is done from the ground up... starting with a nudge from the knees, then the hips, followed by the shoulders, then the arms, and lastly the wrists/hands to produce a whiplike effect.

Well, that's it in a nutshell. It sounds simple enough but perhaps not so easy to execute. Obviously practice makes perfect.

I guess my work is cut out for me this weekend...

[Shamed04]

Re: Ok, so you say hips first..

ive been under the impression that you do not necessarily want to start your downswing with a forward move with the hips. I thought this was the cause of your hands getting "stuck" behind the body...I try to be more aggresive with my shoulders on the downswing and let the lower body just follow along......been workin for me

http://www.golf.com/apps/instruction/V1Golf/archive.asp#

check this site out helped me tremedously

[paterick]

Re: Ok, so you say hips first..

for me: during the back swing and at some point depending on how far i want to go back, i start turning my hips. when i do this there is an imediate reaction: my upper body and my arms are slung in the same direction. it feels like they are connect to the same elastic cord. trying to not allow it to happen takes considerable effort. in either case depending on how fast the hips are turned also affects. too fast and i become out of sync. once i get the rythem, it feels second nature unless i turn them faster than i intended then strange thangs happen to my balance.

remember playing crack the whip? string of kids holding hands. one in the lead starts to turn and a change reaction passes through the hands and arms of the others as a stretch and pull. the idea is to creat a whip which affects the last person. done with an even continuous turn and the last person accelerates faster and faster and fairly in line with the others. but if the lead person turns to quickly, then a lag of the last person is created, the line becomes more curved and likely to break down and become out control. the trick or job of the lead person (the hips) is to do this under control with a conscieous effort of being aware of the last person is. then at one point, one final tug can be applied to send an exteme force of acceleration to the last person. Usually, the last person is sent off flying as they were not able to hold on any longer. i think this chain of events is similar to the swing. it is also important for the lead person to keep constant a constant force. if done too quickly or if he turns too quickly all force is lost and not transfered donw the line to the others.

the next part is getting to the ball. if my weight is on my back foot and the ball forward then i also need to shift my weight forward to get to the ball.
so for me, depending on where the lie of the ball is,then next trick is to put your body in such a position as to allow the lag of the club to sweep down to it with out loosing control of the whip affect.

[cyc53870]

Re: Ok, so you say hips first..

Very interesting analogy. But some people appear to have more skill in cracking that whip, eh?

[SevenBall]

Re: Ok, so you say hips first..

I had a golf lesson today and the pro cleared it up for me. He got me dropping in and I was hitting my shots and extra 20 yards with what felt like absolutely no effort. My ball striking was also up. I hit about 75 balls on the range and there was only one or two not off the sweet spot.

Forums and video are Ok but you can't beat a lesson to get back on track.

[cyc53870]

Re: Ok, so you say hips first..

Well and good that you are hitting the ball well... I don't wanna sound like a wet blanket but we've all been there and have had those moments of striking the ball well. However, the real proof of the pudding is whether this can be done all season long or for that matter for the rest of your golfing days...

[snake]

Re: Ok, so you say hips first..

Great thread.....all comments are so valid for me.
Recently I've been practicing a lot and have found this to be my eureka thought.
When I make my backswing I start the rotation of my hips (whether bump first or rotation I'm not sure) before I finish the backswing.
As I rotate I try to keep my back facing the ball for as long as possible (it feels like an eternity but the actual delay is marginal).
This allows my arms to drop inside and from there I simply release through the shot.
Results are not perfect yet but the sensation and flight is excellent.
What you think... right track or not ?

[SevenBall]

Re: Ok, so you say hips first..

No wet blanket. Thats how I naturally strike the ball. I'm like most 1 or 2 handicapers, I can't understand why everyone can't do it everyday. I haven't played in 4 years and to come straight back to that is well, nice.. Back when I was struggling to get my handicap under 5, I started working on hand-eye co-ordination. Thats when sweet solid straight shots became the norm for me. Back then I had the swing mechanics and not the co-ordination. Now I have the co-ordination and getting back my swing mechanics.

People concentrate on the swing because they can see it but what is equally important is general hand-eye co-ordination. A golf swing is a macro body motion, it puts you in the ball park for a good shot. Your eyes still have to tell the club head to slide in under a ball with a tolerance of maybe 5mm.. Its not a coincidence that the top pro's can do all these fancy ball tricks - they have the co-ordination which can be learnt.

End ramble, Haha

[bill reed]

Re: Ok, so you say hips first..

hi snake
i do the same as you. try and slid my hips to left just before i get to top of backswing, my hips move a few inches to left but my head stays behind the ball. i find i hit the ball lot crisper, took a bit of work getting the timing right but i seem to have it now. my hips dont seem to turn a lot before i make contact with the ball but i still finish with my belt buckle to the left of target, think i was turning hips more before.
i dont think about my upper body at all and only think of the timing and count as i swing, it seems to work for me and i feel i have a more relaxed swing now too. my golf pro says i am swinging faster but it feels slower to me.
bill

[Jeff Mann]

Re: Ok, so you say hips first..

Shamed04 -- you wrote "I try to be more aggresive with my shoulders on the downswing and let the lower body just follow along......been workin for me."

If it works for you, that's fine. However, in the modern golf swing (as exemplified by Tiger Woods) the downswing should start from the ground-up; starting with the lower body and then the upper body.

For an in-depth anaysis of the modern golf downswing, see my critical review chapter on the downswing at http://jeffmann.net/downswing.htm

Jeff.

[Jeff Mann]

Re: Ok, so you say hips first..

cmays

I never stated that all golf swings have to start from the lower body up. I specifically stated that the modern golf swing, exemplified by Tiger Woods' swing (or Ben Hogan's, or Ernie Els', or Adam Scott's, or Luke Donald's or Aaaaron Baddeley's swing), must start from the bottom-up.

Secondly, when did I state that Hogan is not fully loaded at the end of the backswing?

Thirdly, you are certainly free to have your own opinions. I am definitely not dictating that there is only one valid way to swing a golf club.

Jeff.

[Jeff Mann]

Re: Ok, so you say hips first..

cmays - Golfone

I don't know if you are directing your questions at me, or some other forum member.

I obviously have a different perception of reality when it comes to the golf swing.

From my perspective, one should start the golf swing with neutral hands (palms facing each other across the clubshaft). From that point onwards, the golf swing is like a side-throwing action eg. boy skipping stones across a still pond, or baseball fielder throwing a ball side-arm to first base. One first loads-up (backswing), and then starts the downswing from the ground-up (hips first and then upper body second). I have many photos in my downswing chapter demonstrating that side-throwing style of downswing action with a graph showing which body parts have the greatest kinetic activity at every point in the downswing. That's how Ben Hogan and Tiger Woods swing.

Of course, it is posible for a golfer to initiate the downswing from the top-down by actively swinging the arms across the front of the body, and allowing the hips to be pulled into the shot as the body assumes necessary positions subservient to the needs of the swinging arms. That technique is naturally adopted when a 10 year old boy picks up a golf club for the first time, and swings the club. The boy will swing the club with active arm/hand movements and his body will move secondarily in response to his moving arms/hands. That's why that type of swing is called "the tail swings the dog" type of golf swing. That's the type of swing recommended by Leslie King at http://www.golfpro-online.com/tuition/lking/index.html.

However, Ben Hogan and Tiger Woods use the "dog swings the tail" type of golf swing where the rotating torso powers the swing and the arms/hands are swung passively around the body in response to the rotating torso. In that type of golf swing, the lower body must obviously lead the upper body in the downswing.

I don't think that your comments about upper body upright swings versus angled swings is really critical to this distinction between a "tail wags a dog" versus a "dog wags a tail" style of swinging a golf club.

Jeff.

[golfndawg]

Re: Ok, so you say hips first..

I saw on here to keep your back to he targer longer on the downswing-(I have a hip clearing issue again), I made sure I did that and just let the lower do what it's going to do (YEEEEHAWWW).After all these years I think I feel what folks talking about.(got to my left side-hips cleared -whole different feeling than what I have grooved.

[GoNavy]

Re: Ok, so you say hips first..

I saw on here to keep your back to he targer longer on the downswing-(I have a hip clearing issue again), I made sure I did that and just let the lower do what it's going to do (YEEEEHAWWW).After all these years I think I feel what folks talking about.(got to my left side-hips cleared -whole different feeling than what I have grooved.

Golfndawg, more then likely you have just finally relaxed, so hard to get people to just just relax. Tight muscles just don't function very well, try and drive a car with a really tight grip on steering wheel, tighten your arms and shoulders, do it when you have lots of room because you will be all over the road, but we drive fine because we hold the wheel correctly and we are RELAXED, we don't think about it much, just let things happen and make unconscious little adjustment. Golf swing is pretty much the same. Try driving a car with left hand on top and right hand on the bottom of wheel, tough to drive isn't it. That is because that is a bad setup for what you are trying to do. So if you hold the club wrong, and have a bad address setup, that is the same thing, you are trying to drive with something not suited to what you are trying to do. So if you spend your time getting the grip and address setup correct, and relax, the swing pretty much takes care of itself. So if the ball curves or your swing path is wrong, it usually is in the grip or setup, or both, fix that and every thing falls back into place.

Almost every student I see, has some kind goofy setup, I fix it, get them back into position, they hit fine. Two weeks later they come back, I look at them and they went right back to the old setup and started doing the same thing they did before. Some people make the change right away, some you have to keep showing them over and over until they get it.

P.S. Just an add on, since we are bring up upright and angle swing, you really do have to make up your mind which you want to do, because the grip and setup for both are different, you can't swing mixing and matching the two, won't work.