Talent versus Practice

[Martin Levac]

Re: Talent versus Practice

All of you who think that we are born with limits. If you have kids, go to them and tell them:

"You are limited. You will not be the best unless you are born a genius or an athlete. Sorry."

Better yet, tell that to yourself. Accept your fate. Repeat after me "I can't do it".

I go back to Moe Norman. Not a genius, not an athlete. Not even intelligent or even healthy. The results tell a story that doesn't fit.

I prefer to think that I can do anything no matter what I was born with. I loath the alternative.

Here's an exercise.

If all you could do was send the ball 200 yards away but always straight, what kind of scores would you be able to achieve on any course of your choice? Count strokes for each hole like so: <200yards, 2. >200yards<400, 3. >400yards<600, 4.

I did that for my home course and I got 14 under.

[Scragger63]

Re: Talent versus Practice

You'd have a great score if you also assumed you could one putt every green...



I'm with you Martin, one of my favourite sayings is:

"It doesn't matter if you think you can or you can't, either way, you are right..."

Cheers

[kbp]

Re: Talent versus Practice

All of you who think that we are born with limits. If you have kids, go to them and tell them:
"You are limited. You will not be the best unless you are born a genius or an athlete. Sorry."
Better yet, tell that to yourself. Accept your fate. Repeat after me "I can't do it".
I go back to Moe Norman. Not a genius, not an athlete. Not even intelligent or even healthy. The results tell a story that doesn't fit.
I prefer to think that I can do anything no matter what I was born with. I loath the alternative.
Here's an exercise.
If all you could do was send the ball 200 yards away but always straight, what kind of scores would you be able to achieve on any course of your choice? Count strokes for each hole like so: <200yards, 2. >200yards<400, 3. >400yards<600, 4.
I did that for my home course and I got 14 under.

I like this philosophy, too. For most people, pretending there’s no limit would work just fine, since they’ll never get close enough to know the difference. Most people’s goals and drive are nowhere near their potential. However, just because a person can’t see their limits and never approach them, that doesn’t mean limits don’t exist. Either a person approaches their potential or they haven’t done what’s necessary to get there, IMO. Nothing wrong with that necessarily, as many of the greats (not golf necessarily) sacrificed family, friends, health, mental stability, etc. to do "what’s necessary".

[shootin4par]

Re: Talent versus Practice

Martin, I agree with your post, but why do people say/believe they are limited? If everyone in the world understood their true potential then a lot of people would have to answer to themselves why they have not achieved more out of life. As long as they believe they are limited then they can always use that as an excuse. Oh, I would like to do what he does but I cant becasue I was not born that way, its not my fault. If I was limited by my genes then I should be a drug addict or alchoholic right now with no college degree.

[Martin Levac]

Re: Talent versus Practice

The explanation is simple.

We repeat it frequently until we believe it. It doesn't matter if it's true, it doesn't matter if it's a lie. What truly matters is that we repeat it until we believe it.

I learned a while ago that perception is truth. What it means is that whatever you think you see, you believe in, that becomes the truth. A simple test to check the validity of that is to simply look at what your eyes see. Obviously, what you see is reality. Your perception, what you perceive, is truth. For you. The same goes for me. "I know what I saw".

Commercial ads are based on this simple mechanism. Repetition. It doesn't matter if what they say is true or a false, what matters is that it works. Come to think of it, religion works exactly like that as well. Repetition. It doesn't matter if it's true, it doesn't matter if it's a lie, what matters is that it works.

When I was young, I was told I can't do this. I can't do that. All the time by everybody older than me. They repeated and repeated until I started believing what they were saying (sound familiar?). How long do you think it took me to reprogram myself to think I could do it no matter what people told me? Not long, all I did was repeat to myself that I can do it. Over and over. Until I believed it.

Then I did it. Which was all the proof I needed to see afterall.

As I repeat to myself that I can't do it, I don't try because I believe that I can't do it. No use trying. I never find out if I can do it or if in fact what I believe is true. But that doesn't matter because in fact what I believe is true because I don't even try. Once I start repeating that I can do it, I change my tune. Then, I finally do it. By the simple repetition of "I can't", it prevents me from ever doing something. It prevents anybody from doing anything ever. Isn't that cool?

Sayings like "he doesn't know any better", guess where it comes from?

It's not magic, it's not psycho-babble, it's the mechanism by which we learn stuff. Repetition.

Do you know the concept of the big lie? It's a lie so big and repeated so many times that people end up believing it. It works.

So it goes for practice. Repetition. It works because that's how we learn stuff. That's how we become good at doing stuff. Practice makes perfect. Not only do we become good at doing stuff but we accumulate extensive proof that we can do it with further and further practice. "I know what I can do."

[BrianW]

Re: Talent versus Practice

"Other golfers may outplay me from time to time, but they'll never outwork me."

Tiger Woods in his book How I Play Golf, page 106.

Everything Tiger can do, he had to learn. Then he had to practice and practice some more. He wasn't born with any other ability than his ability to learn. Apparently, he used it to great effect.

I am thinking of the saying "put your mind to it". Another "I put my heart and soul into it". And "I can do anything". Two more "If I can do it, anybody can", "If he can do it, I can do it". "What a waste of talent". We never hear "what a waste of practice", instead we hear "what a waste of time".

If you look at Tiger and you don't look like Tiger, you won't believe you can do what Tiger can do. On the other hand, if you look at Moe, anything is possible.

Do you believe that you don't have the genetic makeup to do like Tiger does? If that's what you believe, you will never be able to do it. There is no magic to what Tiger does, we know everything there is to know about sending a ball to a target 300 yards away. Ask Tom Wishon and he'll tell you how to do just that. It's all about launch angle and spin and ball speed. Not about athletic ability or even special technique of this pro or that pro. Don't believe me? Look at Moe norman one more time.

Google Moe Norman CBC archive

Talent is nothing without practice.

Martin,

You make an eloquent debate and a powerful argument. It is correct that through a determination to learn, improve and work hard we can become better at most things within our natural abilities. I would not concur that if someone does not have the intelligence the solution would be "go to school", intelligence is ones ability to learn and if you do not have that ability your improvement in this area will be limited, as will your physical achievements be constrained by your physique.

[shootin4par]

Re: Talent versus Practice

Brian your remarks about martin comments hold some water but the thing is about 99% of all the adults in the world underestimate themselves. Very rarely do they overestimate

[BrianW]

Re: Talent versus Practice

Brian your remarks about martin comments hold some water but the thing is about 99% of all the adults in the world underestimate themselves. Very rarely do they overestimate

Shootin,

Yes I agree wholeheartedly, as I said, if people have the determination they can become better within their natural abilities and you are correct that a belief in oneself is a great motivator.

EDIT:

Martin,
You keep saying practice makes perfect, it only helps to perfect what you are doing, this may be the wrong thing. I think the saying should be "Practice makes efficient and perfect practice makes effective". It's like a bus driver, he could be the hardest working driver in the company and puts in more practice and effort than anyone in driving his bus, the problem is he always drives it in the wrong direction so the passengers never get picked up.

[Martin Levac]

Re: Talent versus Practice

Well, practice does make perfect. What you practice is up to you. Which is where we lose ourselves particularly with regards to golf. I mean look at what is being taught, few teach the purpose of golf or even the purpose of the swing. We lose ourselves in the technical aspects while we forget about what we are supposed to do. It's simple really, send a ball to a target using a club. It can't be wrong, it's too simple and it's exactly what we're supposed to do. We can't send anything else but a ball to the target. We can't send the ball anywhere else but to the target unless we want to lose. We can't use anything else but a club to do that otherwise we break the rules.

A whole lot of things happen when we practice. The first thing is that we learn how a thing is done. Next, we become good at doing that thing. Then, we do it more efficiently, we spend less energy doing it for the same result. The least amount of effort for the same or best result. In golf, that translates to the exact amount of force with the ball in the hole.

The exact amount of force, not the most or the least. Too much and the ball overshoots, too little and the ball doesn't reach the cup. Furthermore, it's the precise application of that force that will produce the best result. The ball goes left or right or curves to either side otherwise.

It's like this. I think there's production of speed and transmission of speed. In other words, there's swinging the club and striking the ball. I also think it's more important to transmit the speed properly to the ball than anything else. I think that you can lose more speed through faulty transmission that any other way.

Anyway, if all you practice is how to transmit speed to the ball properly, don't you think you'll become good enough at the production of that speed in the mean time? I know I will.

I mean, it's a ball, a club and a target. How much talent do you need? As much as tiger? As much as Moe? As much as what you got right now? I think that if you are reading this right now, you have all the talent you need to become good at sending a ball to a target using a club with practice.

[BrianW]

Re: Talent versus Practice

I am pretty good at sending a ball to the target, I work hard at it, I have taken a great number of lessons, I study, I watch, I think about it a lot, I practice more than most, I play all year, I want to win, I want to be better.

Now! do I believe, really believe that I can become a scratch golfer? the answer is "Yes" I do, I have the determination and believe it is somewhere inside me and I will keep working towards it. I did spend a lot of time in my earlier golf days practicing the wrong things and getting very frustrated with myself. Just sit at the range and watch, you see many people spending a lot of their time getting better at slicing, better at topping, better at swinging too fast, better at reverse pivots, they only start to really improve when they learn what it is they do wrong and start to work on the correct things.

Martin, you are obviously an intellectual person and have considered this subject from an intellectuals point of view, I guess that works for you and you will no doubt become a great golfer by the results of your efforts and self belief, that's good! I am older but not necessarily wiser than you but I have come to accept that what is OK for one is not necessarily right for someone else, people are complex beings and have mental and physical limitations along with individual comfort zones and talents, they are not all lazy or complacent they are just human. To quote Max Ehrmann "If you compare yourself to others you will become vain and bitter for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself"

[Ian Hancock]

Re: Talent versus Practice

I am pretty good at sending a ball to the target, I work hard at it, I have taken a great number of lessons, I study, I watch, I think about it a lot, I practice more than most, I play all year, I want to win, I want to be better.

Now! do I believe, really believe that I can become a scratch golfer? the answer is "Yes" I do, I have the determination and believe it is somewhere inside me and I will keep working towards it. I did spend a lot of time in my earlier golf days practicing the wrong things and getting very frustrated with myself. Just sit at the range and watch, you see many people spending a lot of their time getting better at slicing, better at topping, better at swinging too fast, better at reverse pivots, they only start to really improve when they learn what it is they do wrong and start to work on the correct things.

Martin, you are obviously an intellectual person and have considered this subject from an intellectuals point of view, I guess that works for you and you will no doubt become a great golfer by the results of your efforts and self belief, that's good! I am older but not necessarily wiser than you but I have come to accept that what is OK for one is not necessarily right for someone else, people are complex beings and have mental and physical limitations along with individual comfort zones and talents, they are not all lazy or complacent they are just human. To quote Max Ehrmann "If you compare yourself to others you will become vain and bitter for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself"

What a wonderfull way of describing things.

Brian, this has touched a spot for me, my thought exactly.....not quite scratch yet though.................more work I know.


Thanks

Ian.

[cyc53870]

Re: Talent versus Practice

Yes, we will practice hard and long... But at what price? All this practice will take time, effort, money and energy. We are just amateurs, not pros. In the meantime we have our personal lives, family, work, health, finances, etc to deal with...

Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining- it is a privilege to play golf (and its fun too, especially when you execute well) but I just wish that the instructors, golf books/magazines, etc. would have a more effective way of teaching it at this day and age. Or will it remain a difficult sport forever?

[BrianW]

Re: Talent versus Practice

Yes, we will practice hard and long... But at what price? All this practice will take time, effort, money and energy. We are just amateurs, not pros. In the meantime we have our personal lives, family, work, health, finances, etc to deal with...

Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining- it is a privilege to play golf (and its fun too, especially when you execute well) but I just wish that the instructors, golf books/magazines, etc. would have a more effective way of teaching it at this day and age. Or will it remain a difficult sport forever?

Hi,

These are the publications I have gained most from (In no particular order):

Ben Hogan's 5 Lessons.

The Swing Factory - Steve Gould, David Wilkinson, and William Sieghart .(based on Leslie King's 12 lessons)

The Short Game Bible - The Putting Bible - Dave Pelz.

[Sumosid]

Re: Talent versus Practice

I think practice does make perfect. I can't count the old cricketers on the course that have taken up the game of golf in their golden years... their swings can look like a real hacker, but don't bet them money on the game... they will take in a second given the chance. Some of them play with 2-4 handicaps... but can play even better than that if a beer is on the line...

My point is that these guys, just put in the hard yards on the range and the course.... Day in day out. They practiced the right things, and most of the time the wrong things... They knew the end result that they wanted, hacked, practised it, played it, adapted to it, just plain made it happen.

I respect their games so much... It almost reminds me of Treveno...who dug his swing out of the dirt...

[LowPost42]

Re: Talent versus Practice

Perfect practice makes perfect, sid.

But I know what you're getting at. It's like any athletic movement that's 'homemade', be it a golf swing, a basketball shot, or a baseball swing. If you do it enough times your own way, eventually you'll figure out how to do it effectively. That's why these 'hacks' have ugly swings that perform - they've been swinging ugly for so long, they've grooved it, and know how it works.