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  • my understanding

    in looking at the leslie king thread there is debate between all arms, all body, or body and hands swings. So basically we have three options. This is what I believe to understand which most modern golf instruction books did not teach me, but when I read books on the issue I did not understand. I met with an instructor who had to explain it to me in person and then from there I could do some research much easier. But in the next ten years the golf world will better understand the most effecient way to swing a club and maximize its power with minimizing its/our efforts. There are people in the know, like G1/cmays from here, mandrin from another site, ,a couple from mike austins site and many before them that when "science" catches up they will be sitting at the finish line sipping their drinks and saying, we been waiting for you, what took you so long. Mike austin knew it, snead did it, payne stewart, etc.....

    This is how I understand it, if a person use all body or all arms they are not maximizing kinetic energy. in the golf swing you have three main levers. the shoulders are a lever to the arms, which are a lever to the wrists/clubshaft/clubhead
    the objective in maximizing kinetic energy is when one motion stops, then and only then does it send all the energy to the next motion. for instance, if you look at mike austins swing which is the longest in history, you will see how his body stops moving before he hits the ball. this is because in the downswing the shoulders move first and when they stop moving they can transfer all their kinectic energy to the arms. But if the shoulders kept on moving then they would be keeping some of the kinetic energy in them, it takes energy to move the shoulder, and therefore would not have transfered all their energy to the arms, but only a part of it. the energy used to keep the shoulders in motion could have beeen given to the arms, but since it did not transfer all the energy then the swing is not as effecient as possible.

    so basically I am saying that if you use all arms then you are not using potential kinetic energy from the shoulders. ANd if you keep turning the body through the shot then you have not transferred all the kinetic energy to the arms and hands. law of motion, an object in motion stays in motion, unless, it has transfered all its energy into another object

    Also, I worked with a quantam physicists who studies how things fire in the brain and how reaction time takes to long for much to be corrected in the golf swing from the moment it is initieated. His studies showed that trying to think during the swing was basically futile. SO the objectve was to change the intention of what you want the body and club to do during the swing but you cannot think about it, cause it wont really change a thing.

    any questions feel free, for me this was some hard stuff to learn, big terms like kinetic energy took me about four days of thinking to understand exactly how it related to the golf swing. I am not as well versed as many others, that is for sure. . seek out people who know about these things, it might be interesting what you learn

    But on MY journey of this golf swing thing this is where I am at now. after researching varius other ways that did not work for me . In realizing these concepts are hard to explain on the computer this is why I am not on here much anymore, it is very hard for me to put things into words, things like this. Can I hit the ball better with this knowledge, yes, but I also am at a point where I dont put much time or effort into golf, cause for me it used to be agonizing and a obsession to figure out. Now it is just a little hobby.

    good luck in the search
    Last edited by shootin4par; 02-11-2007, 02:38 PM.

  • #2
    Re: my understanding

    I am personally not concerned with the best way of transmitting kinetic energy from one body part to another part (eg. shoulders to arms) during the downswing, and whether the shoulders should retain some of that kinetic energy, or not.

    I have a more simple perspective of the optimum golf swing. I personally prefer the Hogan swing style (mimicing the side-throw throwing action or mimicing the action of the "boy skipping stones across a pond"), which is a body-powered swing style with passive arms. I am not saying that it is better than Leslie King's "arm swing" style. I am merely stating that is different, and that it has a different set of fundamentals. I am therefore, because of my personal bias, more interested in learning how best to understand the body-powered golf swing style.

    Jeff.

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    • #3
      Re: my understanding

      go skips some rocks and put it on video, have a target picked out that you are throwing to. watch how the shoulders will stop. Crack a whip and the same things happen. experiment like hogan said and dig it out of the dirt or dig it out of the TV screen by putting things on video.

      not sure how it came acrros in my initial post, but I prefet a blend between all arm and all body. The body will turn first then stop at a point, the the arms will move independently, and then the momentum of the club will pull the body around to the finish. The hard part with picutes is that there is not enough of them to see what goes on in the swing. A swing sequence of 30 or more pictures of just the dowswing would paint a more accurate picture of what really is going on with the arms and body in any motion that is similar to the golf swing, baseball swing, throwing, casting a fishing pole, cracking a whip, swinging a sledge hammer, etc...

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      • #4
        Re: my understanding

        Shootin4par

        You make a good point about the shoulders stopping when "skipping stones".

        Let me try another method of reasoning.

        In the modern, total body swing, which is body powered, the body powers the swing but the body must move in synchrony with the ams. Optimal synchrony is achieved if the golfer always keeps the arms in front of the body throughout the downswing and most of the followthrough, which means that the body must keep on moving after impact so that the arms remain in front of the body.

        See - http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/AB...sComposite.jpg

        Note that Aaron Baddeley has kept moving his torso so that his chest/abdomen faces the target at the same time as the arms are directed at the target. If he didn't keep moving his torso, then his arms would whip past his torso with likely deleterious ball flight results.

        Jeff.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: my understanding

          as I stated I dont like pictures because you need much more to see what is really going on. a dowswing sequence of 10 pictures is not enough.

          If skipping stones and cracking a whip, swigning a bat, etc.... has a moment when the shoulders stop then it must be a pretty natural motion? SO if that is natural then trying to continually rotate them while doing any of those actions would be unatural and go against what our body wants to do? so fi the objective is to have a repeatable swing we should try to figure out how modern instruction goes against natural and alleviate the unatural motions/movements and then our repeatability would be greater, maybe? Just thoughts

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          • #6
            Re: my understanding

            Shootin4par

            It is my understanding that many golf instructors encourage a full torso followthrough because they believe in a body release (squaring the clubface through body movements in space). I think that if the body stopped turning at impact, that it would encourage an armsy/handsy release through the impact zone, and squaring the clubface would then dependent on timing (timing of the forearm crossover/hand flipping through the impact zone). I think that it may be easier to square the clubface consistently via a body release than via an armsy/handsy release.

            I have personally found that my stone skipping performance accuracy improves when I let my entire body continue to rotate through the throw. When I stop the body rotation, I find that my right arm whips past my body and the stones are directed too far to the left (equivalent to a pull hook golf shot) - due to a frequently mis-timed stone release.

            Jeff.

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            • #7
              Re: my understanding

              well maybe you need to work on driving rhe right shoulder more downplane and at the target I you are rotating around too much on a horizontal axis I can see where you would have issues with releaseing left. I hope you understand what I mean when I say this but all your rebutals make sense to me why you would say them but since we are not togethor in person it is hard to demonstrate. I could clear up my points very easy, i believee. It is nice that you experimented with what I said, or at least that is what I am getting. go experiment some more trying all kinds of different things. but consciously stopping your shoulder for ME, I would say is a no no. it will happen in a good swing.

              the hard part about seeing this happen, in relation to pros
              is the the shoulder blades abducting and adducting (hope those terms are the right one) give an illusion of the shoulders turning. WHen in actuality the arms are moving and not the shoulders Are you familiar with the term false shoulder turn? Here is how to see it. Stand up and have your chest face a wall. Now put your left arm across your chest and not put a clubshaft along your shoulders. Your chest still faces the walll but it looks like you have about 20 or so degrees of shouder turn if you judge it by the shaft Now if your do the opposite with your right arm and put it behind you it may look like 30+ degrees of shoulder turn but yet your chest remains the same.

              This is why I say it is very hard to explain on the Computer, some people will read this and have no idea what I am talking about, I think that myself when I reread

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: my understanding

                Hey Shootin & Jeff:

                Some questions concerning the shoulders? My tendency used to be to quit some what at impact with my torso and shoulder rotation which caused some directional issues. I could hit the ball with good distance but contact was a little inconsistent. Also my finish position was out of balance and not as full as I would have liked. I also had a slight ckicken wing with
                the left arm. I guess this could be caused by too much arm swing and separation.

                Lately I have been working on really releasing my shoulders aggresively through impact after an initial drop of the right shoulder during transition. I turn through with the goal of ending up with my right shoulder facing the target, my hips slightly left of target and my left shoulder facing away from the target. In fact my key is to have my shoulders "trade places" with their adress position. With this feel I am hitting the ball more solid, with better direction and a lower ball flight. I was looking at some pro swings and it seems that this full wrap around type finish is part of the modern swing. I have to stay really loose with my torso shoulders and arms to get to this type of finish and I think this may be helping.

                Shootin, it's sounds like you recommend stopping the shoulder rotation at some point in the downswing? When? I assume this would only be for a fraction of a second? What does this accomplish?

                Thanks much for the feedback.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: my understanding

                  Tim, to fully answer you would require a lot of typing. So I ask you to try stuff and report back. Go grab a baseball or tennis ball and get a target, now conciously keep rotating left and throw the ball at the target, sidearm underhand. and see how accuracy is affected, then throw natural and see how it is affected.

                  Why did you have accaracy problems from the first way you described, to me it sounds as if something was inhibiting left forearm rotation. take a club and swing with left hand only and DO NOT rotate left forearm see what happens to left elbow, Now do the same and ROTATE the left forearm and report back. Tim, golf is about us doing our homework and you seem up to the task, if you report back I will give you my time if you want it.

                  If I give you answers then you will not believe me, but if you are given drills then you get to feel, see, and experience for yourself. and Personal experience is your best teacher, not my answers


                  One thing to clear up, I do not recommend any conscious stopping of any body part, I believe it will happen naturaly and this will allow kinetic energy to fully transfer.

                  Good luck in the search tim
                  seeker
                  Last edited by shootin4par; 02-19-2007, 04:25 PM.

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                  • #10
                    Re: my understanding

                    This guy knows what to do with his right shoulder.

                    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teB4RJ0AHIk

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: my understanding

                      This post and shootin's remarks to me on my thread about the left shoulder got me to thinking.

                      Shootin, when you say the shoulders stop turning and transfer all of the kenetic energy to say the arms I get a certain picture in my mind. If I could remove both my arms to the shoulder joint and attach some kind of pivot joint there that had a steel loop and into each of these loops I could hook a length of chain of say the length of an arm. At the other ends of the chains I attach a weight. The picture I want you to see is someone bent over in address position with a chain hanging from each shoulder connected to a weight centered between the shoulders forming a triangle. The weight could hand down to where normally would be the hands.

                      Now I want to perform a golf swing. If I turn the shoulders there would be a slight lag and then the weight would start back when the chain is taut. I complete the turn back and just when I begin the turn forward the weight is still going back but then the chain becomes taught and the weight is pulled forward. At some point I am going complete my turn forward but the weight is not going to stop because it still has energy it will wrap around my body.

                      I guess we could think of the swing this way. We would have to have very relaxed hands and shoulders letting the shoulder turn whip the arms around the body. OK, this probably sounds a little crazy but there you go. But it also kind of sound like something I read or something somebody tried to tell me.
                      Last edited by jambalaya; 02-19-2007, 08:02 PM.

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                      • #12
                        Re: my understanding

                        Here we go again Cmays. I post a video clip of Luke Donald, to show rather than try to explain in log winded text how someone with a great fluid golf swing uses his right shoulder.

                        What do you do eh! rubbish the help I have freely tried to give. You know what! I hope you feel real superior by it if thats what you are after.

                        Your childish comments do you no credit, I think you are more worthy than this type of pettiness and I refuse to pull myself down to that level.

                        A Very Pissed off Brian

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                        • #13
                          Re: my understanding

                          Cmays,

                          If I had it wrong, I apologise sincerely.

                          Actually the nails were not bad with a bit of garlic dip, well! better than the fights anyway, both ways you end up loosing your teeth.

                          Just because you are paranoid doesn't mean people aren't out to get you!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: my understanding

                            Jam, in the illustration you made the chains would be totally passive. For me when I crack a whip, swing a baseball bat, throw a ball, etc.... I do not see my hands or arms as passive, but as adding to what the body gave.

                            try those drills I gave to tim if you want to see where I am coming from with this.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: my understanding

                              I was just trying to exaggerate the point of momentum and transfer of kinetic energy. It would be near impossible to let the arms be totally passive but as you can see by my posts I am tweaking my thoughts on the swing. I now think that my arms and shoulders have been very rigid, very tight. I have been asking myself a lot about why my arms don't feel like they can swing freely. Too much tension in the shoulders and arms and hands I think. I want to try more of a whipping action which requires that I let the arms hang more loosely and not move in a completely rigid piece with the shoulders.

                              I was looking at Jeff's swing site and thought that with still pictures of the different correct positions that are shown for the backswing, one might concentrate on the positions and not how to actually move the club (Not saying you don't have explanations about that too Jeff). We can all mimic what we see position-by-position but won't do it in a continous real time swing without movements that unconsciously gets us to the different positions. Let's consider bumping the hips forward. I just cannot do this move consciously. It totally throws off my swing. To me the bump forward has to be an unconscious move done out of necessity to accomodate the path on which we swing the club forward and another action that starts the swing downward or forward. The rotation of the hips is generated by that first move down the consequences of which are the hips being pulled around or driven forward.

                              I think a valuable thing about Jeff's descriptions and pictures is that if you are not hitting the ball well it gives you a model to explain why. You can say yep, that right leg is straightening out, yep, I have a reverse pivot, yep, my hips are not rotating. But one cannot consciously in their next practice just say to oneself "I am going to rotate my hips and keep that leg straight" and then are fixed. A lot of times we see really good results the first time or so but in reality their is a more fundamental thing in our swing that caused the hips not to rotate and the leg to straighten. We must find that thing so the the fix becomes permanent.

                              Then again, I might be really full of shit.

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