Help with the left shoulder

[jambalaya]

In another thread I started, I complained about getting my hands stuck behind me and a restricted arm lift and wrist hinge. I am definitely shifting the traingle back in the backswing rather than keeping it between the shoulders. Jeff started me on thinking of turning the left shoulder under in the take away. This helps me with keeping the triangle intact and gives me a freer lift but I am having a hard time doing this without feeling a bit of a reverse pivot. I can feel some weight going on to my left foot as I start the move back. The reverse pivot was a big problem for me when I started to work on my swing two years ago so I am very conscious of it. Any suggestions as to what I might be doing wrong? I really think this thing is key in my swing.

[Jeff Mann]

Re: Help with the left shoulder

If you are moving your left shoulder down to the ground and then back (away from the target) at the start of the backswing, and you are reverse pivoting, then you are probably tilting the left shoulder down rather than turning the left shoulder perpendicularly around the bent-over spine in a rotatory motion. An easy check - what is happening to your eyeline (line drawn between the eyes) when you perform this move. If your eyeline is tilting upwards (right eye higher than the left eye), then you are tilting the left shoulder and reverse pivoting. The left shoulder must have a more horizontal rotatory movement at the start of the backswing so that your eyes move horizontally as your head rotates a little to the right.

See - http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/Woods-head.jpg

Note that Tiger has moved his head horizontally, and there is no tilting of the head (front bill of his baseball cap turns horizontally). Note that Tiger has got his left shoulder well behind the ball, and that his left upper back slopes upwards to the right. You probably need to have a more horizontal rotation of the left shoulder during the takeaway to get it well behind the ball, and you definitely must avoid tilting the left shoulder downwards. Check in a mirror to see that your left upper back slopes upwards to the right at the end of the backswing - see red outline in this diagram ( http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/Go...versepivot.jpg ) in question number 1 in this section of the review http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/backswing.htm

Jeff,

[BrianW]

Re: Help with the left shoulder

Hi Jamb,

I cannot see what you are doing but I will take an educated guess:

You may be straightening your right leg in the take away, tilting your belt line, pushing your spine to the left and forcing your weight onto the left foot.

Think of turning to shake hands with someone on your right side, you would not fall back to the left when doing this and it should be the same position.

A few other things to look at:

Stay centered over the ball throughout the backswing, allow your weight to sit on the inside of your right foot when at the top. make sure your stance is not too narrow.

Hope this is of some help.

[jambalaya]

Re: Help with the left shoulder

If you are moving your left shoulder down to the ground and then back (away from the target) at the start of the backswing, and you are reverse pivoting, then you are probably tilting the left shoulder down rather than turning the left shoulder perpendicularly around the bent-over spine in a rotatory motion.

Yeah, this is probably it but I just can't get the feel of rotating around the spine. I want to start the rotation with the left shoulder but it ends up being a dip of the shoulder. How can I get the feel of this rotation around the spine rather than just thinking my way through it? I know exactly what you are saying but I feel disconnected to the thought. I need to feel it better somehow but can figure it out.

[jambalaya]

Re: Help with the left shoulder

Hi Jamb,

I cannot see what you are doing but I will take an educated guess:

You may be straightening your right leg in the take away, tilting your belt line, pushing your spine to the left and forcing your weight onto the left foot.

Think of turning to shake hands with someone on your right side, you would not fall back to the left when doing this and it should be the same position.

A few other things to look at:

Stay centered over the ball throughout the backswing, allow your weight to sit on the inside of your right foot when at the top. make sure your stance is not too narrow.

Hope this is of some help.

Seems I would have to straighten the right leg to make that dip. Maybe staying more connected to the right leg would help.

[BrianW]

Re: Help with the left shoulder

Seems I would have to straighten the right leg to make that dip. Maybe staying more connected to the right leg would help.

Another thought, you could be bending your left knee further on takeaway, this would also make you dip the left shoulder. Try and work on keeping your belt line level.

[Jeff Mann]

Re: Help with the left shoulder

You may be trying to keep your spine too centralised when you try and rotate your left shoulder perpendicularly around the spine. Look at that reverse pivot diagram image again, and look at how much the body has to move to get to the red outline position. You must have a distinct feeling of letting your spine tilt a lot to the right while your shoulders are rotating perpendiculalry around the tilted spine. Make sure that your spine is pre-tilted to the right at address by adopting the reverse-K position. Then, during the backswing, the spine must really feel tilted to the right.

Look at this photo of Nick Faldo from behind.

See - http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/Faldo-BackView.jpg

Note, in the end-backswing position, that his spine + left upper back slopes to the right.

If you don't get that appearance, and if you are reverse pivoting, then the backswing is too narrow and restricted and there is no room for the arms to move up without tilting more to the left, and aggravating the reverse pivoting.

Look at this other photo - http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/ManzellaPivot.jpg

Make sure that you look like the image on the left (not right). Make sure that you move your upper torso so that your shirt buttons are just inside the right foot, as you pivot around an imaginary axis just inside the right foot. Make sure that you are not pivoting around an axis that is too centralised between your feet.

Jeff.

[BrianW]

Re: Help with the left shoulder

Sorry to keep on, another idea that may help.

Take a club at address.

Raise tour arms to waist high without changing your wrist angle.

Make a 90 degree turn to the right with you shoulders so that the club is pointing straight out to the right.

This is the position you should reach at the end of the take away. Notice how you are centered in your stance, your belt line is level. Get the feel for this position then try to replicate it in a full takeaway.

[Jeff Mann]

Re: Help with the left shoulder

I generally agree with Brian on most things, but I don't like his drill idea because it doesn't encourage enough movement of the upper torso to the right.

I would recommend a slight modification to his drill.

When you put your hands at waist height (keeping the same wrist angle), make sure that your spine is not centralised, but pre-tilted to the right. That will cause your hands to be non-centered between the feet at the start of the drill, but opposite your right mid-torso, and the clubshaft will be pointing about 20-30 degrees right of centre. Then, when you turn your shoulders 90 degrees AND turn your hips horizontally as Brian suggests, your entire upper torso will be tilted significantly to the right, so that your left upper back is tilted upwards and to the right at the end-backswing position (like those photographs).

Jeff.

[BrianW]

Re: Help with the left shoulder

I generally agree with Brian on most things, but I don't like his drill idea because it doesn't encourage enough movement of the upper torso to the right.

I would recommend a slight modification to his drill.

When you put your hands at waist height (keeping the same wrist angle), make sure that your spine is not centralised, but pre-tilted to the right. That will cause your hands to be non-centered between the feet at the start of the drill, but opposite your right mid-torso, and the clubshaft will be pointing about 20-30 degrees right of centre. Then, when you turn your shoulders 90 degrees AND turn your hips horizontally as Brian suggests, your entire upper torso will be tilted significantly to the right, so that your left upper back is tilted upwards and to the right at the end-backswing position (like those photographs).

Jeff.

Jeff,

I agree with that. I suggested taking the club at address (where the spine is tilted slightly right) then lifting the arms to waist high.

[BrianW]

Re: Help with the left shoulder

Here is a section from Leslie Kings teachings relating to the takeaway. It may help. He does suggest starting the takeaway with the left arm and shoulder which differs from some teachings but not that much.
The correct way

Attempting to "hold the club low to the ground" in the takeaway is supposed to give a player a "wide arc". In fact, it does the reverse. In trying to hold the club "low to the ground" the left arm reaches back and down....and the left shoulder dips down with it. This brings about the collapse of the left side and a downward.drop of the head. (see illustration). Again, any possibility of a left hand and arm swing is destroyed. Now, with the arm swing blocked by the body, a player must look to his wrists to keep the club-head moving. This early wrist break completely destroys any chance of a "wide arc".
This type of takeaway is extremely common. Try to understand it, and compare it with the correct takeaway
In the correct takeaway, the left shoulder, hand and arm SWINGS THE CLUB back from the ball. The shoulders then begin to turn so that the swing can continue FREELY TO THE TOP. In this type of movement the left shoulder does not dip down towards the ground. Why should it? The left hand and arm is swinging freely from the shoulder and therefore the left shoulder MAINTAINS ITS HEIGHT FROM THE GROUND more or less constant.

This type of takeaway swings the club smoothly into the correct swing plane that we desire. Note again that there has been no conscious attempt to "steer the club-head inside". it has moved "inside" quite automatically and at the proper time. Indeed, where else could it go?

A Typical Bad Takeaway

Here again, we see the incorrect takeaway described earlier, but from a different angle. The turn of the shoulders is causing the movement of the club. This is obvious. Notice how the left shoulder is dropping down! Again I say this is not a swing....it is a "body heave" to set the club in motion. Above all, notice that this type of takeaway creates and entirely different takeaway line and leads to an entirely different swing plane. This is bound to lead to complications at the top of the swing.

Wrong

Left shoulder drop alters the swing plane
This type of takeaway action causes two other faults. As the shoulder dips down the right leg straightens. Remember, I said earlier the right leg MUST maintain its FLEXED position if a full, correct turn is to be achieved.
Again as the left shoulder dips down, the right hip rises up as it goes back. This is proof that the body is being rocked sideways, rather than turning as it should.
In a correct turn, the right hip moves back, but it must not be allowed to rise up. Like the left shoulder, it maintains a more or less constant height from the ground. The flexed right leg makes this possible.

I want to warn you again about "taking the club straight back from the ball" and taking the club back on the "inside" As we have seen, in a correct takeaway the club swings quite automatically on to an "inside path". No special effort is required to place it there.
It is very important to appreciate that a "correct" takeaway, a deliberate "inside" takeaway and a "straight back" takeaway produce entirely different swing planes, and therefore different positions at the top.
The illustrations show this point.

I say again, make no attempt to consciously take the club back on the "inside", and disregard advice about taking the club "straight back" from the ball.
Both are wrong!

[jambalaya]

Re: Help with the left shoulder

Thanks for the tips. Need to go to the range soon.

[Jeff Mann]

Re: Help with the left shoulder

Jambalaya

I have just found this excellent video lesson on the backswing pivot.

See -
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...16692383&hl=en

Hopefully it will get across what I have been trying to say about getting that left shoulder behind the ball, and having a good backswing pivot that causes your left upper back and spine to slope to the right. Look at how easy it is to lift the arms, without any restriction, when you have a good backswing pivot, rather than a reverse pivot.

Jeff.

[jambalaya]

Re: Help with the left shoulder

Jambalaya

I have just found this excellent video lesson on the backswing pivot.

See -
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...16692383&hl=en

Hopefully it will get across what I have been trying to say about getting that left shoulder behind the ball, and having a good backswing pivot that causes your left upper back and spine to slope to the right. Look at how easy it is to lift the arms, without any restriction, when you have a good backswing pivot, rather than a reverse pivot.

Jeff.

Yes, this definitely speaks directly to my problem. It also answers the question I posed on the other thread. Thanks for a very timely video.

[Jeff Mann]

Re: Help with the left shoulder

Jambalaya

Here is another backswing video that may help you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvOr5...elated&search=

Note that to prevent being retricted in the backswing, one needs to avoid reverse pivoting due to a right hip slide. Note that we want the right hip to actually move to the left side as the golfer pivots around the right hip. For that to happen, note that the left shoulder must move well behind the ball and the left upper back must slope up to the right.

Jeff.