Help with the left shoulder

[shootin4par]

Re: Help with the left shoulder

Jambalaya

I have just found this excellent video lesson on the backswing pivot.

See -
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...16692383&hl=en

Jeff.

there are three types of backswing pivots, to keep it simple. There is the one he is describing, there is the reverse pivot, and there is the compound pivot. the thing is the reverse pivot and compound pivot, to the untrained eye or someone who does not know, look very close to the same. He obbiously only understands two of the options, the one he is describing, and the reverse pivot. anyone who really wants to know about golf would do themselves justice to learn what the compound pivot is, because the compound pivot is more natural. snead did it, payne stewart did it, Mike austin did it, etc.......

[Jeff Mann]

Re: Help with the left shoulder

cmays

What point are you actually trying to make?

Jeff.

[jambalaya]

Re: Help with the left shoulder

Actually I think simplify is what the video does, at least for me. Pretty soon I am going to have all this figured out then I too can speak in a code that nobody understands. One can bend at the hips, which I agree is a good fundamental, but one still has to move the clubhead afterwards to hit the ball.

[Jeff Mann]

Re: Help with the left shoulder

cmays made the following statement-: "If you borrow your daddy's car from the garage, when you are finish with it, you replace it back in the garage. No Lessons Needed."

The implication of his statement is that one doesn't need lessons on driving a car. According to cmays' logic - with respect to a golf swing, one finds one's hands at address, and then one finds one's hands at impact (in the same position) and therefore no lessons are needed to get one's hands from the address position to the impact position.

I believe that one needs lessons in order to learn how to drive a car, and I believe that one needs lessons to learn how to perform a golf swing.

I will personally no longer respond to any of cmays' posts, because we think differently - like being in a parallel, but different, universe :-)

Jeff.

[shootin4par]

Re: Help with the left shoulder

there is a great divide
Cmays knows a lot about the golf swing and instead of people listening to him and learning from him, everyone wants to argue about a better way when they dont understand all the ways. I made a post about 3 backswing pivot uptions, which to me it was clear that the guy in the video did not understand. The compund pivot is a very powerful action and this guy want to dismiss a head between the feet pivot center when the guy really dont understand that it is the center of gravity, the belly button, that is moving back and forth in a pendulum motion when you do a compound pivot. In one regard the guy in the video says a pendulum action is good, but his backswing is not a pendulum. His backswing pivot is actually very unantural and if a baseball pitcher where to use it they would probably fall over. SOme may say throwing a ball has nothing to do with golf, or hitting a baseball does not either. If that is how people think then they dont understand laws of motion of the human body/biomechanics/kinesiology.

the same people doing the arguing dont know why there is only 25% of the weight on both of the pros feet at impact or how there can be 110% of the weight on the front foot at the transition/start of downswing.
if you want to truly understand the golf swing you are doing yourself a big injustice by arguing with G1, instead of trying to learn from him. But just as a professor teaching college students, you have some who sit in the back and dont pay attention, some who think they know it all and challenge the teacher, or some who sit up front and try to hear what the professor is trying to say. In regards to G1, at first I sat in the back of his class, then I moved up to the middle and argued with him as well, but now I am sitting in the front cause I want to hear what the man is trying to say. So I sit here and write term papers, and the moment he corrects me I will not argue but reavaluate what I think I know. This is how a true student of the game, of life, learns. Maybe one day will come a time when G1/cmays ask me to give a presentation.

If you only understood how you are hindering yourself by not being open minded and learning all you can from him.

good luck in the search
seeker

[BrianW]

Re: Help with the left shoulder

HI Shootin, Cmays,Members

I don't think the problem here is that of people not wanting to understand or learn from Cmays, quite the opposite, many of us think he has a lot to offer and we could benefit from his experience.

The problem comes from the fact that the information is very difficult to understand. As the saying goes "The measure of a communication is in it's effect" If people are not understanding then there must be a problem with the clarity of the message, not necessarily the message it's self. I would respectfully suggest that messages need to be less cryptic, simple and to the point.

Cmays teachings may be based on his lifetime experiences and research of which Shootin has obviously gained much. But like all of us we are not immune from others disagreeing or holding contra opinions, that's healthy debate.

I, as much as anyone have sometimes given short shrift to members who in my opinion are being rude or patronising. This is good forum to the great game and many including myself have gained so much from it. We all need to be a little more understanding, respectful of others opinions and play less mind games.

Finally: let's politely help each other while having some fun when we can.

[Jeff Mann]

Re: Help with the left shoulder

Shootin4par

I am not arguing against cmays methodological position, or being closed-minded by automatically stating that his methodology is wrong. I am perfectly willing to consider alternative golf methodologies if they are presented. However, cmays does not present any methodology in a direct, simple-to-understand, detailed manner - he simply states that one should get from "here to there" (eg. from address to impact) without providing explicit details. I cannot even state that I reject his golf methodological perspectives (golf fundamentals), because I have never seen them expressed in a readily understandable manner. It could be that I have a cognitive limitations, and it could be that cognitive limitations are not a problem for other forum members who think that cmay's opinions are very instructive.

Jeff.

[jambalaya]

Re: Help with the left shoulder

there is a great divide
Cmays knows a lot about the golf swing and instead of people listening to him and learning from him, everyone wants to argue about a better way when they dont understand all the ways. I made a post about 3 backswing pivot uptions, which to me it was clear that the guy in the video did not understand. The compund pivot is a very powerful action and this guy want to dismiss a head between the feet pivot center when the guy really dont understand that it is the center of gravity, the belly button, that is moving back and forth in a pendulum motion when you do a compound pivot. In one regard the guy in the video says a pendulum action is good, but his backswing is not a pendulum. His backswing pivot is actually very unantural and if a baseball pitcher where to use it they would probably fall over. SOme may say throwing a ball has nothing to do with golf, or hitting a baseball does not either. If that is how people think then they dont understand laws of motion of the human body/biomechanics/kinesiology.

the same people doing the arguing dont know why there is only 25% of the weight on both of the pros feet at impact or how there can be 110% of the weight on the front foot at the transition/start of downswing.
if you want to truly understand the golf swing you are doing yourself a big injustice by arguing with G1, instead of trying to learn from him. But just as a professor teaching college students, you have some who sit in the back and dont pay attention, some who think they know it all and challenge the teacher, or some who sit up front and try to hear what the professor is trying to say. In regards to G1, at first I sat in the back of his class, then I moved up to the middle and argued with him as well, but now I am sitting in the front cause I want to hear what the man is trying to say. So I sit here and write term papers, and the moment he corrects me I will not argue but reavaluate what I think I know. This is how a true student of the game, of life, learns. Maybe one day will come a time when G1/cmays ask me to give a presentation.

If you only understood how you are hindering yourself by not being open minded and learning all you can from him.

good luck in the search
seeker

I would like to address both shootin and cmays in this post but mostly cmays. My problem is that many times when someone offers a tip they have heard, or like in Jeff's case here links a video, you make a post that is completely dismissive of the advice and then offer what I consider very vague commentary on the right way to think about it or do it. Believe me when I first came on the site cmays I read your posts very intently and still do but as I said before your explanations are very unclear. There are some slithers that I understand but I rarely get an complete understanding of the concept you are putting forth. You come on I guess thinking you've blown away the other guy's theory because you have the true secret to the golf swing but in reality most of us just go huh? If you are going to represent yourself as a wise sage of golf and dismiss others' instructions, you better come through with a true gem of wisdom that everyone has a reasonable chance of understanding. Thing is I really don't want to discourage your participation in the forums, I want you to be more helpful to us. But as it stands now it seems like a constant tease. You make it seem like all of us here are just wasting our time with all these other instructors and tips because you have the secret but are not telling. Then again maybe you are telling and I am too dense to get it. Anybody? Hell, if you are getting through to a couple of people on the boards I say keep it up. It won't bother me how much you post. Just wanted you to understand my perspective.

Amen.

[shootin4par]

Re: Help with the left shoulder

guys, I once could not understand a word Cmays said. when I gained more info from other teachings then I was able to start relating to cmays. the hard part with what he has is that most golf books have such a little understanding of the body. Those golf books are the majority. So cmays, or people with the truth or closer to it, cannnot just give information. IN the information they give they must also show why common perception is wrong, because seriously, the common perception of the golf swing is wrong and WAY off the mark. I can make one bet, which would prove to you guys, why you cannnot play clubhead position golf. If I could see you in person you would understand but for those who doubt that statement I am not offened, I understand the skepticism. 8 steps in a swig do not work, if people tried to throw a baseball that way it would be a funny thing to see.

If you truly want to understand the golf swing look into the biomechanics and kinesiology of it. Learn what a compound pivot is so you understand the differences between a reverse pivot and a compound one http://www.mikeaustin.de/compound-pivot.html
http://www.mikeaustingolf.com/phpBB2...er=asc&start=0

and this website that Cmays posted is great to understand what science is proving right now in golf and you will be closer to the front of the line in the next few years, rather then in the back. http://www.drkochno.com/science_&_golf.htm
The information is out there but it is not in conventional teaching, do some reasearch and you will be much better off in the long run and we all can raise our level of conversation on the matter and everyone will be better off for it. If you dont understand what Cmays is saying, just tell him, "I understand what you are saying on point a c and f but I dont understand point b, d, and e, could you please elaborate". He gives a lot of his time and for those who will listen, he will give more.

[BrianW]

Re: Help with the left shoulder

The Science web site is interesting. I don't think it is saying much that flies in the face of what good players do and preach though.

Let's try and understand the problem: I will try and layout some pertinent points:

If the pupil is confused by what is said to them it is due to either a) the instructor is communicating poorly. b) the pupil is not listening. c) the pupil has a learning problem. I would rule out B and C here.

So many debates on this site are now becoming very frustrating due to: A lack of clarity, what is almost a berating of many good, proficient golfers by vague statements suggesting they do not know what they are talking about, a thinking that all conventional teaching methods are wrong and there is a new wave of thinking in golf instruction but it cannot be clearly defined other than by criticism of traditional teaching.

If the statements made are a wind up to generate a debate then I think it has gone far enough, if they are genuine then I would appeal to the new school of thought (Cmays and Shootin) to step back from accusations that everyone else are some kind of Luddite group that have no foresight and simply create some new posts in the Discussion or Article sections laying out what they wish to communicate.

I have a reasonable degree of patience but I am becoming tired of trying to help members here that are asking for advice, then being told by other members that the help I try to give freely and in my own time is wrong due to me not understanding something that the other party cannot communicate.

I do not intend this message to be confrontational, I would just like any discussions relating to things like teaching techniques, new wave thinking in golf etc to be debated in the appropriate forums and not by the way of disrupting threads that are supposed to be answering peoples questions or offering help.

[jambalaya]

Re: Help with the left shoulder

Shootin, could you explain the difference between the compound pivot and reverse pivot. Those diagrams look like a classic reverse pivot.

[shootin4par]

Re: Help with the left shoulder

Shootin, could you explain the difference between the compound pivot and reverse pivot. Those diagrams look like a classic reverse pivot.

jambalaya
you have asked a tough question. You are very correct in saying they look alike, very similar. That is the hard part about it, to the untrained eye they look the same. If I could explain it in less then 200 words then the majority of the golfing world would have understood it by now. This is one you would need to search for and get a video of someone doing it. You also can read the links I gave and do a google search and see what you find. In the compound pivot the real difference is what goes on beneath the surface of the skin, how the muscles fire. When you watch a car go down the road you see the wheels spin but not how the motor runs. Sometimes when you watch the human body move you see how it looks on the outside. but two very similar looking motions could move completely differnent on the inside. So that makes it very hard to explain the difference. But if you want to learn the secret of Payne stewart, sam snead, mike austin etc... then the compound pivot is the secret you need to look into

I wish I had a better answer for you my friend, but if I tried to pinpoint down the question you ask I would be doing an injustice to you.

[shootin4par]

Re: Help with the left shoulder

Bring on the heat Guys, I love it.

come on now Mr. Mays, humility is the key to the kingdom of our minds

[shootin4par]

Re: Help with the left shoulder

Brian
here is the rock and hard place
I have studied this golf swing to a great extent, I found books like hardy's, harmons, ledbetters, etc...to talk about position golf and not understand the backswing pivot, or how the human body works. There are other books that do have some insight into what a real compound pivot it, search for the perfect swing is one that goes into it a little. Then I see a book, harmons, hardy's, etc.. A video, like the one jeff man posted about the backswing among countless videos I have seen, and multiple instructors that I have seen in person. If you were me and see people posting information that you know, in your well intentioned heart, did not have all the facts and you knew they did not understand a way that is more natural to the human body, how would you handle it? How do you explain to people that the method they are using or trying to use, that you studied that method and used it as well, and one day you realized that there is another method that is actually more natural for the body. How do you explain to people, without them thinking you are arrogant, that you can hit the ball multiple ways, with no adjustment period between shots. Not because you are talented and that is why you can do it, but just because you understand the methods well enough that you just tell your mind what to do and your intention takes over. How do you tell a socioty that relies on pills that there are natural ways that will work much better for them, all they have to do is explore and listen to their body, how do you tell a socioty that is based on greed that there is plenty to go around if they just learn how to give more and keep less. How do you tell people who focus so strong on hate that love is the answer? Or how about a child that has an alcholic mother so he follows that path as well and one day turns from it. If I talk about that with my mother how could I explain both sides of the fence without offending her?

I am not saying I am the person who has all the answers, I know and understand that I have a lot to learn. but just say that hypothetically you knew those questions and answers, how would you tell people without offending anyone, how would you inform people that their perspective is limited and that there is another side to see. As great a man as many of our religious and spiritual leaders have been, not a one has walked this earth without offending someone. so when someone gets offended whos problem is it? Is it the messangers problem or the one recieving the message. If I get upset at what others think of me and my opinions then I have a big problem, my ego.

[BrianW]

Re: Help with the left shoulder

Shootin,
This is how you do it! You just explain it in a way that people can understand, whatever you say there must be a method, if there is you can describe it.

Jeez! its only a golf swing we are talking about here, not the meaning of life. Cmays still seems to think we are "Bringing on the heat" can't he see that all I am saying is, OK I am prepared to listen but please explain in a way that I and others can understand, that's all!

I would respectfully suggest that if you wish to help people here then help them, don't confuse them. Maybe Cmays can post a video of his method so we can see what we should be doing?

Statements like the following are IMHO not helpful on a site like this to someone starting out or trying to overcome a problem in their golf

"How you bring the club back in the backswing does not matter, peroid, as long as you can turn your shoulders or back to the target.

The downswing path means nothing as long as you match the clubface angle to the path you are using. Most of you want spend the time to study ball flight and it effects.

Once you understand path and angle and posture, then there is very little practice needed. The ball and it's movement does not care what angle you had in the backswing.

You are looking for some magical cure in the backswing with this and that angle, come down at this angle and etc., and it is not there.

It all comes down to knowing how to control the club and making it work for you.

I hope that you do not get in the auto to drive and see a 90 degree turn to the right that you want to make and try to angle the steering wheel to 90 degrees all at once.

You ease into the turn, you ease into the swing, the ball will wait for you and you learn to simplify. You work on your lag and release and posture will correct many faults."