George Knudson and his swing

[kbp]

Re: George Knudson and his swing

Most baseball swings are just as mechanically poor as most golf swings. It’s just that mechanics aren’t as critical to average success as they are in golf, for a variety of reasons. Directionality is not as critical, off hits are tolerable and more often successful, you only need to hit the ball about 20 percent of the times you swing at it, the pitcher provides some of the power, the bat is symmetrical and straight and doesn’t have a "face" to square nor a small head at the end only (it tolerates imprecise swings and thus less "swing quirks" and "compensations" are required to "save" a bad swing), the upper and lower body are rotating about the same axis, no spine angle to lose, etc.

[shootin4par]

Re: George Knudson and his swing

cant remember ever seeing a baseball swing as ****py as barkleys golf swing

[Allen Drummond]

Re: George Knudson and his swing

Shootin',
No disrespect but you're comparing apples and oranges to make the point that golf is more difficult. I disagree. Baseball may be more forgiving in that the field is very wide. If you intend to hit the ball down the left field line but it instead goes down the right field line you still have success. If a fairway continued to get wider at a 90 degree angle from the tee then mishits would be less important.
The reality is I can't (nor can most people) hit a 90 mph pitch but I can drive a golf ball 260 yards. Half the time it will be in the fairway or close enough to recover. I can't even put the baseball in play!
People play golf into their eighties or more. No hope of playing baseball at that age, at least not typically.
Though I have honestly seen it happen, it is fairly rare for a person to actually miss a golf ball when they swing. More rare is missing the ball three times.
I shoot in the low eighties regularly. I play men thirty years my senior that can not drive nearly as far as me, shape the ball, or spin it back on the green. But they can beat me!
The game is difficult yet you need not be an athelete to play. You can't compare golf to baseball. It just isn't the same.
Al

[shootin4par]

Re: George Knudson and his swing

I agree with much of your post allen, many very valid points. When I type, or anyone for that matter, it would take me ten pages on some examples if I wanted to fully express a point of view to the point where it cannot be taken out of context. My basic point is the mechanics of throwing a ball, swinging a bat, swining a sledge hammer or walking for that matter are much more natural then what some people try to do with a golf club. I was not implying how hard it is to time a 90mph fastball

[tony_teetime]

Re: George Knudson and his swing

If anyone still think that the hands has no role at all or just passive in during the swing, then put your hands on ice for five minutes and hit some ball. After doing so ... now tell me if the hands has any critical role in the golfswing ?

People are so caught up in correct body and arm motion that they often forget your hands are the only connection to the club. It's all about controlling the club face in order to deliver it properly with decent clubhead speed. People need to be more clubhead concientous and your hands are the only connection and provide the best sensation of that clubhead during your swing, so use them.

I'm not advocating flippy hand actions or overactive hands , I'm only suggesting that you need proper hand action. For right hander: your left hand cock up and down , and your right hand hinges like a door. This is the correction action of the hands and if you use them properly , it will make you a great ballstriker.

[bampot]

Re: George Knudson and his swing

Hi,tony. I fully agree. I no longer attempt to play golf when weather is very cold. When you have no feel in your hands it is pointless.

[Neil18]

Re: George Knudson and his swing

What a fascinating thread. I was thinking of starting a new one on some stuff I've learned in the last week or two, but I'll add on here, if I may.

The results I have attained recently have changed the way I look at my golf swing. I'm slowly taking the small muscles out of play in my swing. I was once of the opinion that my hands were a source of "that little extra something" to help whip the clubhead through impact and square it. I have sinced learned that, for me, it is completely the opposite.

Since getting a good video camera and hooking it up to V1, I get to see my swing every time I practice, then compare it to good ball strikers.

One thing I noticed recently about good ball strikers (Charles Howell in particular - I like using him because he's tallish and wiry like me but still hits it a mile) is that at impact, the hands are directly infront of the shoulders/body. By this, I mean that when clubhead meets ball, you could draw almost a perfect T between shouders and hands, with the hands at apporximately 5 o'clock in relation to the shoulders. This is what results in the decending blow born of clubhead lag, but it depends very much on the actions preceeding impact as to whether this can be achieved.

For me, getting my downswing happening in the right order is the key to not using my smaller muscles to complicate matters, and to maximize lag. So many of us (me included) have the tendency to hit at the ball for reasons already covered in this, and other threads. Truly swinging the club through the ball is an illusive feeling and, I believe, is made vastly more complex by using the smaller muscles and doing things in the wrong order. However, I would add to this that I was in the frame of being forced to use my smaller muscles (hands/fingers) to create speed when I wasn't sequencing my downswing correctly.

The result of my shoulder oriented "hit" toward the ball from the top used to bring me OTT. I got round this by starting to use my smaller muscles to physically move the club back down on, and a lot of the time under, my swing plane in an attempt to attack the ball from the inside. Because of this I had to use my wrists, hands and fingers to square the clubface and get the ball started on target, with varying degrees of success depending on how well my brain was working with my body on any given day. That's why what worked on day 1 was failing on day 2.

Having studied Charles Howell (and others) in slo-mo, I can categoricallly state that the downswing of a powerful and accurate player that is a true swinger of the club depends hugely on the ability to "drop" the club from the top at the same time as starting to unwind their lower body target-wards. The upper body stays facing away from the target. And for a long time. Turning the torso comes last.

Dropping the club whilst keeping your torso facing away from the target serves three purposes. Firstly, it puts the club on plane at the start of the downswing. That's it. No more needs to be done to get or keep the club on plane throughout the rest of the swing. Secondly, it places the hands directly infront of the torso. Thirdly, it increases the amount of wrist-cock attained at the top of the swing because of the inertia and weight of the clubhead.

So now, when I swing, at the same time as starting to (it must be a gradual thing) rotate my lower body to the target, I'm keeping my torso facing away from the target and simply dropping my arms and hands (not actively pulling/moving them) so that my hands feel "infront of me". Once they are there and the lag has been increased, I just continue my turn. Through the rest of the turn, no amount of concious action is used in my forearms, wrists hands or fingers to either square the club or create speed. I'm swinging through the ball with my body/core. Obviously, my hands have to be doing something through the ball, but only as a natural reaction to my body turn. To actively use the hands in the swing means only one of two things - holding it off ar flipping it. I now do neither and club meets ball on plane, released late and square.

The first time I did this successfully I didn't even feel like I hit the ball at all because I hadn't used any of the small muscles and complications upon which I had so heavily relied before. The result was extremely pleasing as well. Straight and long with a medium trjectory, hang time at the peak and above all else REPEATABLE. I was excited to get home and get it on V1 because i knew something good was happening. The proof in the pudding was tasty. Not only was I the closest I've ever been to on plane both back and through, but for the first time ever, I had the shaft of my 5 iron bending at impact - a sure sign of lag, power, accuracy and ball compression.

On video, the look of the swing is only marginally different, but it's the order in which things are happening that makes the difference. And for me, doing it in the right order removes excessive working parts and a more easily repeatable, successful swing.

Wish I could post my V1 files on here so you could see it, but I'm having trouble with doing that and posting links on here at the moment.

To see what I mean with Charles Howell, go to youtube and search for "swing vision". In there is the perfect example of Charles Howell, face on, doing as described.

I hope I have described this clearly enough, and also hope that if anyone tries it, it yealds as much happiness to them as it has me!

[BrianW]

Re: George Knudson and his swing

Hi Neil,

That was described well thank you. Good posting.

To generate a clubhead speed of 100 MPH + it is not possible to do this using the upper body, arms and hands alone. The thighs and hips are a major muscle mass and are the engine in creating the initial rotational force that in turn the torso, then shoulders, then arms are progressively fed into so that the hands can whip the clubface through impact at such speed the wrists and forearms have no option but to come along for the ride.

Look forward to seeing the Video.

[Neil18]

Re: George Knudson and his swing

Totally true with the thighs and hips comment, I feel. When I said I felt like I was hitting the ball with my core, it felt more like the bit between my torso and legs/hips. What some might refer to as ones Chi. Very powerful indeed.

[jambalaya]

Re: George Knudson and his swing

Great post Neil. You are coming to some of the same conclusions to which I have arrived recently. Tension in the grip, arms and shoulders in the downswing was a killer for me. I look at the drop now as gravity and centrifigal force doing it's job. I try to let the arms free-fall as I initiate my downswing now so that they come back more naturally to the set up position.

I couldn't use the bump of the hips forward before with success because I was manipulating the club with my hands and arms at the same time so the action did not tranfer power or momentum to my arm swing. In fact, the two actions were probably working against each other. I have undergone so many transitions in my swing in the last few years I am being really cautious about my probability for success with these new thoughts. After all, I have really played only one round with these new thoughts. But it really put the feel back in swing.

[Neil18]

Re: George Knudson and his swing

Nice one Jamb.

I haven't played a round yet with this swing. Due to on Saturday hopefully. the confidence it has instilled though will hopefully help get me through it!

Keep it up!

[JohnP]

Re: George Knudson and his swing

Great thread this, I ordered the book but it hasn't arrived yet. I took the basic concept of the arms being lead by the body up the range last night.

I started off by swinging the club around the body at waist height trying to promote the feeling of the arms being led by the legs/body

It didn't take long to transfer this feeling to hitting actual shots, the results were very very encouraging, the club had the deisred lag element, came into the ball on a more inside path and the resulting shots were long and straight (6 iron 175 yds approx - which is good for me)

If I slipped and started lunging at the ball, I just went back to step 1 and re-enforced the feeling.

My prognosis so far is that this is worth sticking with!!

[The Hud]

Re: George Knudson and his swing

As a high handicapper I have found this very interesting, I know there are many successful players who concentrate on swinging their arms and just as many on turning the body. I believe you do what ever works best for you, but I have been to many teaching pro’s and read heaps of books on the swing and I have come to the conclusion that many pro’s don’t know how to teach the golf swing, they learned as kids where eventually muscle memory has taken over whereby they only have to think of a couple of things in the swing and the rest just happens. Only for us high handicappers the rest just dose not happen and the pro can’t understand why you are having so much trouble following his simple instructions. I followed the instruction of swinging through the ball as against hitting at the ball and the only thing it brought me was golf elbow; I think it is great reading about your various thoughts on the swing, it gives different aspects that I can go the range with and try and as I said, you do whatever works for you.

[shootin4par]

Re: George Knudson and his swing

G1,
the compression is better and the consistency is better. I have not been checking my swing speed though and I am also swinging a lot easier now and getting same distance and longer then before I started working on it. Still only practicing 1 or maybe 2 days a week. I am beginning to like the game more again so I may start to practice 2-3 times a week. very good chipping and pitching session today, the majority of what I did, then hit 35 balls and that went well with the wedge and 8 iron, four good drivers and done. I got to go home relaxed

[jambalaya]

Re: George Knudson and his swing

As a high handicapper I have found this very interesting, I know there are many successful players who concentrate on swinging their arms and just as many on turning the body. I believe you do what ever works best for you, but I have been to many teaching pro’s and read heaps of books on the swing and I have come to the conclusion that many pro’s don’t know how to teach the golf swing, they learned as kids where eventually muscle memory has taken over whereby they only have to think of a couple of things in the swing and the rest just happens. Only for us high handicappers the rest just dose not happen and the pro can’t understand why you are having so much trouble following his simple instructions. I followed the instruction of swinging through the ball as against hitting at the ball and the only thing it brought me was golf elbow; I think it is great reading about your various thoughts on the swing, it gives different aspects that I can go the range with and try and as I said, you do whatever works for you.

I don't think we can emphasize enough regarding the part I have highlighted in bold. One can't think during the through swing to drop the arms into place, to lift the back heel, to consciously shift the weight or follow through, etc.,. I think it has to happen through proper set up and a good first move that triggers a sequence of events. I don't know why it is so hard for instructors to get through to a lot of their students but I think it is true. But it is not an easy task for an instructor. There have been many things in the swing for which I have had it explained several different ways 'til suddenly it clicks.