Shoulder turn and Lag....

[golfseeker]

I am not an expert on the golf swing I admit. I do think something has to be addressed and that relates to the shoulder turn relative to the lag prior to impact. I've watched many video of professional, amateurs (myself included) and read most of the archive blogs on this site. It seems to me that the shoulder turn is actually slower with the pro whereas the amateur has a faster tempo than the pro with the shoulders. I believe that is correct. This means the amateur starts with over-the-top move with the right shoulder first. Something you certainly don't want to do. In the process the lag is lost as well as the hip turn. To get to my point.....the very good amateur or profession golfer generates 70 to 80% of their swing speed from the lag and the turning of the hip. Thus, if that is the case someone like Ernie Els who swings in the 130 mph range must generate most of the swing speed (90 to 100 mph) in the turn of the hip and the lag prior to impact. For you experts out there is this correct? If that truly is correct should we not be spending most of our time learning, teaching, etc and emphasizing that aspect of the swing? Why not spend more time talking about that portion of the "moment of truth" just prior to impact? If a person "gets" that part of the swing then the rest of the swing should fall into place eventually. Any thoughts?

[BrianW]

Re: Shoulder turn and Lag....

Well, I think a lot of time here is spent on explaining the importance of a body led swing, Jeff's web site is dedicated to it as is most of his posts along with the comments of many others.

Ultimately it is clubhead speed and good contact that dictates the distance a ball will travel and clubface alignment that will decide the direction the ball will travel. To carry a ball 280 yards before it hits the ground it needs to be sent off at 175 MPH, to do this it needs to be struck at 127 MPH with an 8 Ounce clubhead, 130 MPH with a 7 ounce clubhead. (I did get these facts out of a book).

These speeds cannot be generated by the muscle power of the arms alone, not even the arms and shoulders. You need the power generated through the legs, hips, torso, upper chest and shoulders, arms and hands. The legs and hips make up around 30 % of the muscle mass available for use in generating that speed. Every part of the rotation in the swing must be pulled round by the part nearer the ground.

So, the legs pull round the hips, the hips the torso, the torso the upper chest and shoulders, the shoulders the arms, the arms the hands, the hands the shaft and the shaft the clubhead. Each section creating more speed until the clubhead whips around the body and sends the ball soaring.

EDIT:

I forgot to mention the release of the wrist angle and rolling of the forearms into impact that give the final run home.

I hope that is a good starter

[Jeff Mann]

Re: Shoulder turn and Lag....

I agree with Brian.

The body generates swing power starting from the bottom-up (lower body first and upper body second, arms/clubshaft third).

The body's swing power operates through the central hinge point in a double pendulum swing action (see http://www.tutelman.com/golfclubs/De...?ref=golfcoast )

According ot David Tutelman, maximum centrifugal force (F = mv2/r) occurs if the radius (r) is small, and r is small if wrist lag is maximised for the longest possible period.

Jeff.

[golfseeker]

Re: Shoulder turn and Lag....

Thank you Jeff, Brian for your comments. I have watched a couple of Senior Pro's ....Dana Quigly and Allen Doyle for instance; they hardly have any back swing to speak of and they hit it well, far and accurate.

In my case, I am trying to get to the point where mechanics don't enter into my swing thoughts when I get to the tee box. Nor do I want to think mechanics any place of the golf course. With that said, my primary goal this coming season is this......I want to simplify by swing to as few swing thoughts as possible. I want to get on the tee box, pick my club, pick my target and trust my swing. I am getting real close to that goal. That is probably the goal for most of the people on this blog who enjoy and play the game of golf.

Again I thank you for your comments.
Seeker

[Neil18]

Re: Shoulder turn and Lag....

Hi peeps.

I don't totally disagree with what is being said by BrianW and Jeffman. But I think that a powerful strike born from good lag and body rotation doesn't follow completely the series of unwinding from the bottom up.

Watch any good ball striker in slo-mo and there are two "first things to move" in the downswing: a) the arms drop b) the legs/hips start to turn back toward the target.

Essentially this means that the unwinding isn't from the bottom up totally. Additionally, I would add that for a pure, effortless strike the time difference between hips and shoulder turning through is negligable. Yes, hips go before shoulders, but only fractionally. So many golfers end up flipping at the ball because bottom half out-races top half and top half outraces arms. It's not that staggered.

The way I see the downswing is:

1. legs start to unwind at the same time as the hands drop to just below rib cage/sternum height, (i.e. ones torso and hips are still turned away from the target. Granted not as much as they may have been at the top of the backswing. What I mean is that the unwinding of the legs will open the hips slightly, and in turn slightly start the rotation of the shoulders, but that's gonna happen. They're all connected!)

2. Once the hands are down, the full rotation of hips and shoulders (now I'm talking about the player actively using the trunk) turn to the target to complete the swing. The arms must go with this rotation at the same time for consistency.

I mentioned earlier that the bottom half must not outrace the top half and the top half must not outrace the arms. The closer the arms can bring the hands back to form the triangle in front of the body (as at address), the more lag will be retained without having to try to hang on to it (yuck!), the less effort is required, and the less complications are added by having to use the arms, hands, wrists and fingers to square the clubface and create more speed. It just happens. Hit the ball with your trunk. The more one uses the little muscles actively, the more complications arise.

Of course, due to the hinge in the wrists, the truly last thing to come through is the clubhead, but this isn't achieved by leaving the arms behind. Arms and body turn as one. Club follows because of the wrist hinge.

EDIT:

That's why (as per original post from Golfseeker) the pro's shoulder turn appears slower than the average golfer. The torso turn waits. It's not one of the first things to go as per the average golfer. It waits for the hands to drop sufficiently for a turn of the trunk to suffice in delivering a powerful blow. Hence why they are more consistent ball strikers (those that swing it this way! Not all of them do!)

[jambalaya]

Re: Shoulder turn and Lag....

Hi peeps.

I don't totally disagree with what is being said by BrianW and Jeffman. But I think that a powerful strike born from good lag and body rotation doesn't follow completely the series of unwinding from the bottom up.

Watch any good ball striker in slo-mo and there are two "first things to move" in the downswing: a) the arms drop b) the legs/hips start to turn back toward the target.

Essentially this means that the unwinding isn't from the bottom up totally. Additionally, I would add that for a pure, effortless strike the time difference between hips and shoulder turning through is negligable. Yes, hips go before shoulders, but only fractionally. So many golfers end up flipping at the ball because bottom half out-races top half and top half outraces arms. It's not that staggered.

The way I see the downswing is:

1. legs start to unwind at the same time as the hands drop to just below rib cage/sternum height, (i.e. ones torso and hips are still turned away from the target. Granted not as much as they may have been at the top of the backswing. What I mean is that the unwinding of the legs will open the hips slightly, and in turn slightly start the rotation of the shoulders, but that's gonna happen. They're all connected!)

2. Once the hands are down, the full rotation of hips and shoulders (now I'm talking about the player actively using the trunk) turn to the target to complete the swing. The arms must go with this rotation at the same time for consistency.

I mentioned earlier that the bottom half must not outrace the top half and the top half must not outrace the arms. The closer the arms can bring the hands back to form the triangle in front of the body (as at address), the more lag will be retained without having to try to hang on to it (yuck!), the less effort is required, and the less complications are added by having to use the arms, hands, wrists and fingers to square the clubface and create more speed. It just happens. Hit the ball with your trunk. The more one uses the little muscles actively, the more complications arise.

Of course, due to the hinge in the wrists, the truly last thing to come through is the clubhead, but this isn't achieved by leaving the arms behind. Arms and body turn as one. Club follows because of the wrist hinge.

EDIT:

That's why (as per original post from Golfseeker) the pro's shoulder turn appears slower than the average golfer. The torso turn waits. It's not one of the first things to go as per the average golfer. It waits for the hands to drop sufficiently for a turn of the trunk to suffice in delivering a powerful blow. Hence why they are more consistent ball strikers (those that swing it this way! Not all of them do!)

I do not think you are going to be able to tell what moves first, the hand drop or the hip move. It is pretty much a simultaneous thing but ideally I think the hip bump should come first with a very small lag for the arms to drop. Visually I think it is easier to see the hands moving when making the initial move forward. I am trying not to think consciously about moving my hands in the first move though. I am trying to just let my arms go when I get to the top and allow the hip and shoulder turn to bring the hands/arms down.

[Jeff Mann]

Re: Shoulder turn and Lag....

Nei18

I agree with you that the arms move at the same times as the hips in the downswing. However, the right arm moves passively in response to the squaring of the hips (shift-rotation of the hips). I have described this "sequence of downswing movements" issue in great depth in the downswing section of my review. If you think that I have made an error in my description of the sequence of events, please let me know because I want my review to be as accurate as possible.

Jeff.

See -http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/downswing.htm

[shootin4par]

Re: Shoulder turn and Lag....

the arms will drop as the second axis tilt happens. Since the second axis tilt is the first move from the top, the arms will drop at the same time, first move from the top. The second axis tilt drops the arms, the arms do not drop the second axis tilt

[Neil18]

Re: Shoulder turn and Lag....

Hi Jeff,

Firstly, I have to commend you on your ammalgamation. It must have taken much time and effort and is as clear as anyone would need it to be to understand the mechanics of a good golf swing. All for non-profit purposes. Well done.

I am also slightly flattered that you would ask me to look at your work and let you know if I think there are any mis-descriptions in it. Thanks for the trust. I'm not a pro but I like to think that I have done similar to you in terms of understanding and applying the physical act of swinging a club, just not written it down in such a wonderful manner. Might I add that my swing is REALLY coming along and I wish I could get my PC to upload a bloody video of it! Watch this space!

As far as the descriptions go in your text I can only see, from my point of view, one very minor thing which may add confusion to your guide, or any guide for that matter. I will explain why. Firstly though, I think the use of Ben Hogan imagery can be a slightly dangerous game as his swing was, and still is, unique. I know you've been on Chuck Quinton's site so I won't bore you with what you already know, but suffice it to say that (as Chuck highlights) there are certain "anti-hook" moves that Hogan employed, as he detested the shot. He also played a fade. His aggressive hip shift-rotation helps him do this. Additionally, the man had soooooooooooo much lag it borders on the dangerous for anyone to use it as a reference to building a swing that can be learned by text, photo's or video (which is all the media we have). Baddeley's swing is a better generic example to use, although he's even undergone some changes recently to improve his ball striking.

I have stated earlier in this thread that good, consistent, reliable ball striking from rotation and lag depends greatly on getting the hands back infront of the centre of the body in the downswing. You have a perfect example of this in your work. The picture of Tiger Woods in downswing. You could almost draw a perfect T between his shoulders and hands. Hogans hands are lagging somewhat behind his shoulders. Hence, contrary to many peoples beliefs, I agree with Chuck's analysis that Hogan actively used his hands through impact. He had to because of his type of rotation. Tiger hits through the ball with body and arms as one entity. No manipulation needed from the arms fingers, hands or wrists. One powerful unit working together.

Back to the descriptive side of things. The main part of confusion, for me, might surround the famous 3 picture figure of Ben Hogan demonstrating his ball throwing/pond skimming exercise. Whilst I fully appreciate what he was trying to put across, the motion of throwing a ball, which is almost identical to the action of cracking a whip, is not a circular motion. A good golf swing is circular in nature.

Cracking a whip and skimming a stone requires more of a straight line attacking motion. We extend the arm behind us. As the arm comes close to the body it bends, then extends infront of us elbow, wrist then fingers to propel the stone/create the wave down the whip to get the crack at the end. In essence, a straight line.

A straight line in any part of a golf swing destroys the natural power of an object moving in an accelerating circle (the clubhead). I agree with many who state that those golfers who try to hit straight by actively extending their arms down the target line are flirting with inconsistency. I know. I've been there. One does extend beyond impact, but still in a circular motion. I'm only just having this properly sink into my own swing.

As I said at the beginning. A grand piece of work from you sir. Descriptively accurate as far as I'm concerned and anyone on this site should read it and take heed. Just those little Ben Hogan bits and the skimming/whip-cracking stuff, for me, tends to place a seed of contradictory thought in some people heads (it used to for me!).

Just noticed one other thing! In the graph you have showing the full golf swing kinetic link, I find the interpretation of the graph interesting. Far be it from me to question scientists. I may have this totally wrong and concede if I have, but the time between the hips turning and the shoulders turning is three time units. However, the time between the shoulders moving and the arms moving, is only one time unit. Now, with the golf swing being a pretty quick action in the scheme of things, this leads me even more to solidify my belief that torso (from the core up) and arms move through the ball as one unit, rather than having the arms lag behind. Ok, for the graphs purposes there is still one third of the time difference between shoulder and arms differential than between shoulders and hip, but we are talking fractions of a second, not a visible difference as with the hips to shoulders ratio.

What do you think?

Pleasure to chat with you.

[Neil18]

Re: Shoulder turn and Lag....

Hi Shootin,

I've probably missed it on another thread, but what do you mean by second axis tilt?

[Scragger63]

Re: Shoulder turn and Lag....

Seems to me we are talking about a swing key to start the downswing.

Have long been a fan of Harvey Pennick's and his so called "magic move" where the right elbow comes back into the side and the left heel goes back to the ground at the SAME time.

I try to use this thought (where I don't get all worked up over blokes who can't count, drive or find wayward balls) and it has worked for me...

Cheers

[Jeff Mann]

Re: Shoulder turn and Lag....

Neil

I agree with many of your points.

I agree that Hogan had too much wrist lag, which a beginner golfer cannot/shouldn't mimic. That's why I used AB as my model. He only had a 90 degree angle between the right forearm and the clubshaft.

I agree that skipping stones is not quite equivalent to a golf swing because one releases the right arm/stone along a more straight line and the right arm followthrough is often down the line (because it is a single upper limb, right-sided motion while the golf swing involves two arms producing a more circular motion). However, I think that Hogan was using the side-throw ball throwing action only to emphasize the correct sequence of body movements in the downswing prior to release - hips first, shoulders second, and forearm release last.

Regarding the graph, I am presuming that when they refer to arms, they are actually referring to the forearms. They surely cannot be talking about the upper arms because the upper arms move as soon as the hip initiation movement happens. As soon as the hips shift-rotate, the right upper arm moves closer to the torso and the right elbow immediately come down to the right hip area at the exact same time.

Thanks for your comments.

Jeff.

[Jeff Mann]

Re: Shoulder turn and Lag....

Scragger 63

I agree with you about replanting weight on the left foot and getting the right elbow down to the side- at the start of the downswing. That's why I stated in my review that the first downswing movement was a replanting of weight onto the left foot + a hip shift-rotation (squaring of the hips) movement + getting right elbow down to the side.

Jeff.

[shootin4par]

Re: Shoulder turn and Lag....

If one wants to understand more I suggest that understanding a concept such as mike austins may be eye opening to a lot of people. Mike swung down the line more so then most golfers. SO in his style of swing, which produced the longest ball ever in competition at 64 years of age with old equipment from the 70"s, going down the line is very natural. Saying that this move is unatural, I have to disagree. Snead does not swing as much around as hogan, his swing looks pretty good to me. People get very caught up on tiger being the model, when if you really look at his swing it is good but has some huge flaws. why can he not stop the double cross?
second axis tilt, at set up we bend forward adn a little to the right, the forward bend is primary axis tilt, the bend to the right is secondary.

[Scragger63]

Re: Shoulder turn and Lag....

second axis tilt, at set up we bend forward adn a little to the right, the forward bend is primary axis tilt, the bend to the right is secondary.

Shootin...

I try to "tilt twice" as you describe it. In the one and only lesson I've ever taken, the pro told me that I should bend twice. Once from the waist shoulders forward, then second again from the waist, shoulders a little to the right.

From memory, the reason being, he said, was to get behind ball. Actually, now that I think about it, he didn't give me a reason, he just said to try it. And, it seemed to work for me.

Though, he didn't call it a "second axis tilt".......

As we are all sometimes prone to say, "whatever works......"

Cheers