some more thoughts

[shootin4par]

how the arms can be used in the pendulum model. can they add more speed then the pivot alone

take a child and put them on a swing set. you are going to swing the child and the child is held in place at 9:00 before you swing the child, they will swing down to 6 and up to 3. While they are going down gravity and torque from the shoulders will propel them. can you assist those two with the arms as well?
3 options,
A. now you could just drop the child, gravity, shoulder turn and add no arm force, they will probably swing just past 3.

B. You cauld have the child drop from 9:00 while you stand by the bottom of the arc and try to apply help from the 7:30 position, the child is going fast by that time and you will be lucky to add 5% to the childs speed, so they will swing up slightly where they swung in option A

option C. You could stand at the top and push them as they dropped and pulled. At this point they are going the slowest and your help, along with gravity and the shoulders can propel them way past 3

throw from the top, the best way to add speed if you know how to do it right?

[Scragger63]

Re: some more thoughts

Shootin, whilst I undertand the analogy you are trying to make, I'm thinking it's not quite accurate...

Given the golfers weight transfers backwards from address to top of backswing, then forwards again to follow through and finish position, in order for your swing set example to be spot on, the swing couldn't be firmly fixed to the ground and there would need to be some lateral movement of the fulcrum point back then forwards.

Yeah all right, I used to be a physics major in college....

Further, if you try to conciously throw it from the top, isn't that one of the causes of casting or coming over the top...???

Personally, I find the less I think about it, the better I hit it...

Just my 2c...

Cheers

[BrianW]

Re: some more thoughts

Throw from the top? I think power from the bottom is where we should focus. The child swing analogy concentrates on the arms and shoulders which as Scragger suggest can create OTT and casting.

This "O" factor that has been discussed in another thread is a good way to consider creating power in the shot, it's not a new idea but explains the use of the lower and upper body well.

http://www.golf.com/golf/instruction

[takinitdeep]

Re: some more thoughts

Throw from the top? I think power from the bottom is where we should focus. The child swing analogy concentrates on the arms and shoulders which as Scragger suggest can create OTT and casting.

This "O" factor that has been discussed in another thread is a good way to consider creating power in the shot, it's not a new idea but explains the use of the lower and upper body well.

http://www.golf.com/golf/instruction

Hogan's 5 lessons tells it all, swing back and through under the pane of glass.
In today's language, turn your back to the target, keeping your core as the central point of coil, and, turn back through.

[Started2k3]

Re: some more thoughts

Lets break it down:

Wrists/forearms - could be used to provide more "punch" but IMO severe risk of flipping or hooking - I believe this is AJ Bonar's claim to fame

Elbows - would require a bent left arm at the top of the backswing and to be the most efficient the "release" of the elbow would have to coincide with the release of the wrists - so very late - have fun timing that - I believe this is called "lever power golf" by Jack Kendall (sp)

Deltoids - the actual muscles of the shoulder - to add additional force you would have to separate the lead arm from the chest - the average man could probably lift a small child with a straight arm so that the arm is level with the ground, this is not a very strong muscle (don't believe me watch a strong man competition ... very low weight for those guys and it is killer) - if you wanted to practice this techinque you would probably want to do Vijay's towel drill with a twist that you drop the towel just before impact so that separation is occuring.

Have fun shootin'

[shootin4par]

Re: some more thoughts

torque from the shoulders, which I did not explain fully is the beginning of the post, is the base on the ground puilling, because the shoulders are connected to the body, in the swing the left arm only knows what the shoulders are doing, even though the lower body helps to propel the swing. Yeah, I understand how many would think it is casting. If you have seen the likes of Mike austin swing you would see how far he hit it, how easily and effeciently he did as well. hogan himself said he wanted three right hands, because he used that to gain speed. As did same sneed as well. Tiger put an artilcle in golf digest over a year ago on how a new move of his was to rotate his right forearm. I understand this is a post that would have some concerns because this is not the conventional way. snead, hogan, tiger, and austin all used their arms and beleived the right hand added power.

standard address
take your right hand and cup it back. and then immediate from there rotate you right hand clockwixe while turning your body and what happens, you get the right hand tray position. Now shift and unrotate that, this will move the club down, and uncock the left wrist but the right wrist is still cupped, the left is flat
castin is coming over the top and more in relation to right shoulder movement rather then the hands releaeing. You have only lost your lag when your right wrist cup is completely lost.

[RandomHero1090]

Re: some more thoughts

Maybe I am off here Shootin....but tell me if my understanding is what you were trying to explain....

If you try to accelerate TOO late in the swing, you are not going to generate any additonal speed at the time of impact. HOWEVER, if you start to accelerate at the 9pm mark (or when the "L" is reformed), you will max our your speed at the 6pm mark (the impact zone).

You dont accelerate from 12pm. You "touch the gas" to get it moving (ie: shift the weight to the left side). Once the weight is shifted and your arms "drop" you can hit the gas hard and start accelerating.

If I hit the gas at 7pm, I am not maxing out speed at impact.

What do we think of that?????

[shootin4par]

Re: some more thoughts

Maybe I am off here Shootin....but tell me if my understanding is what you were trying to explain....

If you try to accelerate TOO late in the swing, you are not going to generate any additonal speed at the time of impact. right on point

HOWEVER, if you start to accelerate at the 9pm mark (or when the "L" is reformed), you will max our your speed at the 6pm mark (the impact zone). You could from wherever your hands are at the top, if the child/hands were at 10:30, you could do it from there to.

You dont accelerate from 12pm. You "touch the gas" to get it moving (ie: shift the weight to the left side). Once the weight is shifted and your arms "drop" you can hit the gas hard and start accelerating. The arms are not really moving down except for they are being carried there by the pivot, it is the opposite rotation of the one you do in the bakcswing. The one I mentioned after you cup the right wrist.

If I hit the gas at 7pm, I am not maxing out speed at impact. Exactly

another way to imagine it,
Imagine you are a kid and your friend is on his bike on a hill and he wants help to get to top speed as fast as he can and you have three friends. friend one is gravity, friend two is pulling him, and friend three is pushing him. would you wait untill he gets to 20 mph from gravity and pulling? you would not have much effect there. You push him from the beginning and you are of greater assistance.

What do we think of that?????

you seem to understand what I am saying random.

[RandomHero1090]

Re: some more thoughts

Cool... Glad we have a similar thought process

They example of the "hill" is excellent.

I have really felt the effects of a proper pivot lately. By focusing on making a proper shoulder turn, building coil (while not RP'n) and then making the 1st move as a ROTATION of my left hip UP and LEFT.... I can feel my arms being pulled down while my right shoulder is working under my chin. I notice the increased speed I generate by starting my downswing with the proper rotation.

Now...as I get more comfortable with this, I feel that I can start to accelerate my swing EARLIER on, which will definately generate more clubhead speed WITH the power behind it. I wait until 9pm (or when the "L" is reformed) so that I know I am on plane and have properly transfered the weight.

I think those who are new to golf get in trouble by accelerating the hands and arms too early in the downswing. They do not pivot correctly, have no weight shift back to the left side, and basically throw their hands over the top and swat at the ball.

The "O-Factor" article from this month's Golf Magazine goes into this proper pivot & chain of events.

[takinitdeep]

Re: some more thoughts

Many very confusing concepts being expounded upon here.
My advice:
1. Get a good pro who understands your goals
2. Take lessons in small increments
3. Practice what the pro teaches you until you can repeatedly perform the lessons
4. Play and practice alot
The concepts on this or any site are just very interesting but without a good teaching pro seeing your swing and your progression, I'm afraid there will be lots of disappointment.
Anyway, I still enjoy reading the posts and even after 40 years of playing, and maintaining my single digit handicap, I still see the pro every 3 months for a checkup.
Invest your money and time in lessons, you will not be disappointed.

[shootin4par]

Re: some more thoughts

fun little drill I was doing today. right hand only with a six iron. I did no pivot, the only thing I did was cup the right wrist back and rotate that right hand counter clockwise, this got it up to the tray position. I used ZERO pivot back and the smae amount down, kept the body still. WIth this motion only I was hitting the six 120 yards with good compression, using range balls into a 15 mph wind.

Hey TID
I am discussing it with those who want to discuss it.

Mr. Mays, I like the ball from the building analogy. If you do it right you cannot throw to hard from the top. You gotta watch the austin video, some of the things he says to his audience crack me up. He was a cocky SOB, but when your right your right.

[shootin4par]

Re: some more thoughts

Throw from the top? I think power from the bottom is where we should focus. The child swing analogy concentrates on the arms and shoulders which as Scragger suggest can create OTT and casting.

This "O" factor that has been discussed in another thread is a good way to consider creating power in the shot, it's not a new idea but explains the use of the lower and upper body well.

http://www.golf.com/golf/instruction

done incorectly of course it causes problems. The shift at the base of the spine, and the throw from the top, is why your longest hitters are so much longer then everyone else. People come over the top from faulty hips and shoulder movements going on improper plane. I have yet to see a person come over the top who had a good pivot.

[shootin4par]

Re: some more thoughts

being the first day I would not say I was effecient at it. I got a few to bounce on the edge of the green, whiich is 120, 137 to the pin 15 yards away. I would estimate that it would be to the pin if there was no wind and real balls. i could be wrong though. In the full swing I would imagine once I get hip high or so I will not be able to add anymore right arm, at that point it will be going for a ride. But on the one arm only swings it is going slow enugh to add right arm untill impact.

[shootin4par]

Re: some more thoughts

1. You right handed golfers stick the left hand out and up with the forearm parallel to the ground while sitting at the comuter.

2. Close the fingers almost close. Do not let the tips of the fingers touch the palm.

3. Roll the thumbnail back to the chest towards you and allow the forearm and wrist to turn and the thumbnail will keep rolling down and around.

Notice that easy turning action, everything is working together and the wrist is as loose as a goose and ready to fire into action.

4. Now grab your pen or pencil and place it under the fat pad on the little finger side just as gripping a club and lightly allow the tips of the fingers to hold it in place.

5. Now try to roll the thumbnail back around.

Is the wrist and arm froozen? How do you get them to release?

I like that drill man that was eye opening. I got the wrist to roll by................... , well I will pm you on it so others can see for themselves

[RandomHero1090]

Re: some more thoughts

I was waiting to see if you would pop up Shootin.

If you can hit the 6 iron a 170 yards, around 119 yards would be around 70% correct. So the wrist action and back hand slap was giving you 70% of the swing power? Maybe a little more if you are hitting into the wind.

In that case you only get 30% more distance from the lower body.

In a normal type of swing with wrist and arm action from both sides you would see around 40 to 60 precent. Think on the lower side.

G-1.

Never really thought of it that way.... When I practice my "L to L" shots (left arm gets to parallel on the backswing, then right arm gets to parallel on the follow-through) I can hit the ball about 70% of my normal distance. If I really POWER it with my arms and wrists, maybe 80%. I control it much better. So sometimes, esp into the wind, I will take 2 clubs more and hit that shot instead of trying to MUSCLE my normal club.

BUT....

My avg. drive is right around 275 yards. 70% of that number is 192.5 yards. So yes, my arms hit the ball 192.5 yards, but the lower body gives me that all important 82.5 extra yards.

My recent surge (in the last year) has dropped my handicap from a 13 to a 7. I am hitting more 3/4 shots, more wedges, and getting on in 2 on some of the shorter par 5s.

God I love this site....