random thoughts

[shootin4par]

just thinking out loud
in life two of the things we do with our body, we extend away from us and pull towards us. For example, take a leg press, we are extending, now. when I was a kid I could move a whole stack of 720 lbs and I weighed 130. Now if the motion was reversed and I was strapped in, could I pull towards me with my legs 700+ lbs?
take push ups
I could dtop and do at least 35-40 and and I dont practice them. If I layed on my back and had a bar where my chest is, I dont think I could do that many,
in punching we extend out, is it possible by pulling in we could hit as hard? I would venturn to say not

how are bodies are set up? when we push a car we can get leverage because we push against a car and against the ground. we can just push a car with no pulling action. we cannot only pull a car though, if we only pull the amought of force we could pull with is our body weight. If you want to pull a car with more then your body weight you must pull with the arms, but push against the ground by leanging back. Try stanging straight up and pushing a car, it wont happen.

in throwing a ball we are pushing against the groung and pushing the ball forward, in the high jump we are pushing, in running, pushing, walking, pushing, bicycle riding, pusing. the only pulling dominated action I can think of woudl be swimming, there may be more though. But in our day to day activities we push push push all day long.

what does this have to do with golf? in golf what do we want, the most amount of force with the least amount of effort? If that is what you want then you push back in the backswing with the front side, left hand, left hip, and in the downswing push with the rear side, right hand. thoughts? left side back, right side through.

just throwing it out there,
Neil

[RandomHero1090]

Re: random thoughts

just thinking out loud
in life two of the things we do with our body, we extend away from us and pull towards us. For example, take a leg press, we are extending, now. when I was a kid I could move a whole stack of 720 lbs and I weighed 130. Now if the motion was reversed and I was strapped in, could I pull towards me with my legs 700+ lbs?
take push ups
I could dtop and do at least 35-40 and and I dont practice them. If I layed on my back and had a bar where my chest is, I dont think I could do that many,
in punching we extend out, is it possible by pulling in we could hit as hard? I would venturn to say not

how are bodies are set up? when we push a car we can get leverage because we push against a car and against the ground. we can just push a car with no pulling action. we cannot only pull a car though, if we only pull the amought of force we could pull with is our body weight. If you want to pull a car with more then your body weight you must pull with the arms, but push against the ground by leanging back. Try stanging straight up and pushing a car, it wont happen.

in throwing a ball we are pushing against the groung and pushing the ball forward, in the high jump we are pushing, in running, pushing, walking, pushing, bicycle riding, pusing. the only pulling dominated action I can think of woudl be swimming, there may be more though. But in our day to day activities we push push push all day long.

what does this have to do with golf? in golf what do we want, the most amount of force with the least amount of effort? If that is what you want then you push back in the backswing with the front side, left hand, left hip, and in the downswing push with the rear side, right hand. thoughts? left side back, right side through.

just throwing it out there,
Neil

Wow....well....here goes nothing....

I have done quite a bit of physical training in my life. I was a placekicker in high school and have a brief stay on the Penn State Football team (Mind you, if the kicker ahead of me and behind me didn't make it into the NFL (Brett Conway and Robbie Gould) I might have had a better shot). So I have had my fair share of weight training and watched some of the biggest men I have ever seen in my life throw 1000s of pounds around like it was nothing.

What I have ALWAYS heard the trainers and coaches talking about is "working the weak opposing muscle." Chest & Back, Tris and Biceps, Quads and Hams. One "muscle group" pushes and the other muscle group pulls. MOST people have strong PUSH muscles...chest, tris and quads. But they don't work the PULL muscles...back, biceps, hams.

PERFECT example is your leg press exercise. Your quad muscles are HUGE muscles. With a leg press, you incorporate your quads, glutes, calves, and even your hamstrings. However, when you do a leg curl (or the PULLING that you talked about) you really only use the lower back and hamstrings, much smaller muscles. You can move a lot more weight PUSHING than PULLING.

HOWEVER, there are compound exercises that are a combo of the push/pull....deadlifts, cleans, clean and press.

Guess my point to all of this is simple.... when more muscles are involved and being used in unison, the more "weight" or "energy" you can create. World Class Powerlifters are the same size as a lot of NFL Linemen. But most NFL Linemen can only bench in the 400-500lbs range. But Powerlifters can go upwards of 800lbs. They TRAIN their muscles to work in unison. Powerlifters practice 1 particular move and use every ounce of energy their muscles have in the most effective way possible. Just like driving a golf ball or kicking a football, there are several ways to do it, and many are more effective than others. Just because I am the same size as Tiger Woods, doesn't mean I will hit the ball as far as him. He has trained his body to work with a fluid power that only a few can match.

SO! How do you generage more power in your golf swing? I feel that the golf swing is a compound move, but as I pointed out, most of us generate more power when we push. Once I learned how to use my lower body to create leverage, I then learned how to drive my right side (hip, quad, foot) forward. Only difficult part with that is doing it the right way. I feel, that is using the right lower body to drive the left hip UP, and let the right shoulder work DOWN (see my pic). Its working for me, its created a lot of power and accuracy, and I don't feel that I have to "work" to hit the ball a long way.

But, don't forget how many other muscles are involved in the golf swing....shoulders, abs, lower back, forearms, traps, glutes.... Those need to be strong enough to support your swing.

Hopefully I can continue this discussion, because its a good one!

[shootin4par]

Re: random thoughts

Wow....well....here goes nothing....

I have done quite a bit of physical training in my life. I was a placekicker in high school and have a brief stay on the Penn State Football team (Mind you, if the kicker ahead of me and behind me didn't make it into the NFL (Brett Conway and Robbie Gould) I might have had a better shot). So I have had my fair share of weight training and watched some of the biggest men I have ever seen in my life throw 1000s of pounds around like it was nothing.

What I have ALWAYS heard the trainers and coaches talking about is "working the weak opposing muscle." Chest & Back, Tris and Biceps, Quads and Hams. One "muscle group" pushes and the other muscle group pulls. MOST people have strong PUSH muscles...chest, tris and quads. But they don't work the PULL muscles...back, biceps, hams.

PERFECT example is your leg press exercise. Your quad muscles are HUGE muscles. With a leg press, you incorporate your quads, glutes, calves, and even your hamstrings. However, when you do a leg curl (or the PULLING that you talked about) you really only use the lower back and hamstrings, much smaller muscles. You can move a lot more weight PUSHING than PULLING.

HOWEVER, there are compound exercises that are a combo of the push/pull....deadlifts, cleans, clean and press.

Guess my point to all of this is simple.... when more muscles are involved and being used in unison, the more "weight" or "energy" you can create. World Class Powerlifters are the same size as a lot of NFL Linemen. But most NFL Linemen can only bench in the 400-500lbs range. But Powerlifters can go upwards of 800lbs. They TRAIN their muscles to work in unison. Powerlifters practice 1 particular move and use every ounce of energy their muscles have in the most effective way possible. Just like driving a golf ball or kicking a football, there are several ways to do it, and many are more effective than others. Just because I am the same size as Tiger Woods, doesn't mean I will hit the ball as far as him. He has trained his body to work with a fluid power that only a few can match.

SO! How do you generage more power in your golf swing? I feel that the golf swing is a compound move, but as I pointed out, most of us generate more power when we push. Once I learned how to use my lower body to create leverage, I then learned how to drive my right side (hip, quad, foot) forward. Only difficult part with that is doing it the right way. I feel, that is using the right lower body to drive the left hip UP, and let the right shoulder work DOWN (see my pic). Its working for me, its created a lot of power and accuracy, and I don't feel that I have to "work" to hit the ball a long way.

But, don't forget how many other muscles are involved in the golf swing....shoulders, abs, lower back, forearms, traps, glutes.... Those need to be strong enough to support your swing.

Hopefully I can continue this discussion, because its a good one!

thanks for adding some insight into the discussion, you are right, the opposing muscles are weaker and it would be ideal if it could be worked. Our challenge, for example, is that when we walk, we push. and since we walk so much it would be hard to make those opposing muscles just as strong because it would take a lot of time to work them out as much as walking. And you, obviously having great insight into this stuff, already know that. So we work with what we naturally have, in the golf swing, and you are gettting the results it seems
as far as your left hip and right shoulder, drive you right knee down and out at a 45* angle to your target line on your downswing, this will get your weight to your left, your left hip up, right hip down, and since the right hip is down the right shoulder will be as well.
again, thanks for the discussion
neil

[kbp]

Re: random thoughts

To continue this discussion, yes, we are at our strongest when we push. However, moving a golf club doesn’t require our maximum strength. Since a powerful ball strike is more a function of speed, is it relevant how we are strongest or is it more relevant how we are fastest? Are we any faster when we push versus when we pull?

Also, your examples are basically linear actions. The golf swing is very much a rotational action. When trying to deliver speed to a rotational action we frequently DO pull. Actions like starting a lawn mower or turning a playground merry-go-around when it’s moving very fast. True, we are braced by a "pushing" force, but the move is a "pull".

Lastly, there is stability, directionality, and accuracy. Will a string stay straighter if you push it or if you pull. If you lay a pencil on the table and grab the tip you can easily pull it across the table in a very straight by just pulling it on a straight line. Try pushing it across the table with your finger tip. You have to constantly adjust the direction of the push to keep the pencil moving on a relatively straight line. It wants to wander all over the place.

That said, I like to hit the ball with a fair amount of "push".

[RandomHero1090]

Re: random thoughts

So we work with what we naturally have, in the golf swing, and you are gettting the results it seems
as far as your left hip and right shoulder, drive you right knee down and out at a 45* angle to your target line on your downswing, this will get your weight to your left, your left hip up, right hip down, and since the right hip is down the right shoulder will be as well.
again, thanks for the discussion
neil

BINGO. Work with what you got and work it the right way.

You have to be real with yourself. I have to look in the mirror and do 1 of 2 things...
1) Say to yourself, "this is my body, and I will learn to hit the golf ball as best as I can with this body."
OR....
2) Say to yourself, "this is my body, and I will improve on my weak areas to improve my overall golf swing." ***To a lot of us, including me, these weak areas are the abs, shoulders, rotator cuffs, neck muscles, back***

Both are great things to commit to. But 2 will produce a better, all around, you. Look at Carmilo or Tiger. Fantastic shape and probably would excel in other sports. They are healthy, and as far as I know, haven't suffered many injuries....which leads me to....

If you want to SWING HARD AND CRUSH THE EVER LIVING &$#@ OUT OF THE BALL, your body has to be able to handle that kind of swing. So many golfers have back problems due to lack strength, flexibility and a poor golf swing. You have to be versed in the fundamentals of the golf swing and be in "good enough" shape to hit the ball. "Good enough" is for you to decide. Do you swing 110mph or 70mph? Do you want to hit the ball 300 yards or 200 yards?

My absolute favorite golf writer, David Feherty, said of the "tour pros 20 years ago"..... "Their (the pros) idea of exercise was pulling themselves off the floor at the local pub to snag another round."

Now, the top golfers (well, lets not look at Phil, yes, he has lost some weight, but I still think he looks sloppy ) are in amazing shape. "In shape" not being ripped muscles... "In shape" being solid cardiovascular health, good diets, strong muscles, fluid flexibility, and most importantly a consistency to maintain all of the above.

Yes, there are exceptions. But hey, if you want to get better at golf, why not get better looking and get in better shape at the same time!!!!

[shootin4par]

Re: random thoughts

To continue this discussion, yes, we are at our strongest when we push. However, moving a golf club doesn’t require our maximum strength. Since a powerful ball strike is more a function of speed, is it relevant how we are strongest or is it more relevant how we are fastest? Are we any faster when we push versus when we pull? well, in a tennis swing a forehand "push", genrelly is stronger and faster then a back hand pull

Also, your examples are basically linear actions. The golf swing is very much a rotational action. When trying to deliver speed to a rotational action we frequently DO pull. Actions like starting a lawn mower or turning a playground merry-go-around when it’s moving very fast. True, we are braced by a "pushing" force, but the move is a "pull".
throwing a baseball is rotational and in the merry go round you pull to a certain point and then change that to a push as you extend away from you
Lastly, there is stability, directionality, and accuracy. Will a string stay straighter if you push it or if you pull. If you lay a pencil on the table and grab the tip you can easily pull it across the table in a very straight by just pulling it on a straight line. Try pushing it across the table with your finger tip. You have to constantly adjust the direction of the push to keep the pencil moving on a relatively straight line. It wants to wander all over the place. put a spot on a wall and backhand and forehand it, which one would be more accurate? probably pretty close between the two or favoing on the side of the forehand slap

That said, I like to hit the ball with a fair amount of "push".

very good points KBP, I am just expressing the other side of it. Thanks for making more conversation, thinking and learning is always good, and you have me thinking whcih will lead to learning.

[RandomHero1090]

Re: random thoughts

To continue this discussion, yes, we are at our strongest when we push. However, moving a golf club doesn’t require our maximum strength. Since a powerful ball strike is more a function of speed, is it relevant how we are strongest or is it more relevant how we are fastest? Are we any faster when we push versus when we pull?

Power, in my opinion, produces speed. You have to use the power the right way. If you cannot produce the speed, how can you make a "powerful" ball strike?

Also, your examples are basically linear actions. The golf swing is very much a rotational action. When trying to deliver speed to a rotational action we frequently DO pull. Actions like starting a lawn mower or turning a playground merry-go-around when it’s moving very fast. True, we are braced by a "pushing" force, but the move is a "pull".

It's a compound movement, no question. It's a rotational move, no question. But as I have been working my right shoulder actions, I "think" in terms as a push, but both pushing and pulling are going on.

Lastly, there is stability, directionality, and accuracy. Will a string stay straighter if you push it or if you pull. If you lay a pencil on the table and grab the tip you can easily pull it across the table in a very straight by just pulling it on a straight line. Try pushing it across the table with your finger tip. You have to constantly adjust the direction of the push to keep the pencil moving on a relatively straight line. It wants to wander all over the place.

I think you hit it dead on here. PULLING produces the accuracy, PUSHING produces the force. When I pull the pencil, its very straight. When I push the pencil, I can really zing it across the table. Fair to say, you need both. You need both in unison working together.

That said, I like to hit the ball with a fair amount of "push".

We feel powerful when we push. I think a good golf swing has a lot of "push" in it. But your pencil comment brings another angle into this....

Do you need more accuracy or more power? Do you need more PUSH or more PULL?

[BrianW]

Re: random thoughts

I think I am correct in saying that muscles only pull, they don't push. So to generate power you should pull with the biggest muscles available. Have to scoot now!

[kbp]

Re: random thoughts

Good points to all. Of course the movement is a push and pull and it’s rotational.

IMO, throwing a baseball HAS a necessary pulling component and the degree to which it is a power source depends on the pitcher and the move. Also, most torso rotation is a pulling of the muscles of the back and abs around the core. A muscle fiber really can’t push, it can only contract (pull). Our core, unlike our limbs doesn’t have levers to convert muscular contraction to limb extension.

I still think that it is a matter of how high of a magnitude of force is required. The example of the tennis backhand vs. forehand. A tennis ball weighs significantly more than a golf ball. There is a fairly substantial need for a sustaining "force" through impact. Not such a pure rebound collision. In golf, there is a more efficient collision and with a much lighter object.....a momentum transfer that is really mostly dependant on the speed of the clubhead, not the amount of force applied DURING the actual moment of collision. IMO, a tennis backhand stroke is nearly as fast as a forehand, but the weak position of the arm and hand in the backhand will not support the collision through impact.

As far as using force to generate speed, yes the two are related, but if you look a Charles Howell versus a John Daly, you’ll see that availability of large muscular strength doesn’t translate into a comparable increase in absolute speed or in distance. Daly may be 50 percent stronger than Howell at pushing motions, but he doesn’t hit a golf ball 50 percent further. In other words, having the ability to move extremely heavy objects with a pushing force, doesn’t directly correlate with moving very light objects very fast. The muscles and the lever systems have physical speed limits, which are approached, at some point, and give diminishing returns.

[RandomHero1090]

Re: random thoughts

I think I am correct in saying that muscles only pull, they don't push. So to generate power you should pull with the biggest muscles available. Have to scoot now!

OK OK Muscles only pull. They only contract and PULL the tensions and ligaments.

However, to push, or to to exert a thrusting force upon something, is what I am talking about.

I am driving myself crazy about this. I have talked to some golfers who say they feel as if they PULL the club, others say they PUSH, and others who say BOTH. I feel that different parts of my body do different things in the golf swing. But my biggest power "feeling" comes from my right left PUSHING of the ground and driving my hips.

[GolfJunkieSr]

Re: random thoughts

The way the golf swing was explained to me was that the pushing motion supplied some power, with little control. The pulling motion provided power with more control. The analogy back then was that it was easier to pull a chain than to push it. You could pull a chain from point A to point B in a straighter line than if you tried to push it. The point being that anything being pulled will follow what ever power is pulling it. If you pulled a chain while walking in a straight line, the chain would follow in a straight line. A pushing power would be cause to continually keep re-directing the pushing power to keep that being pushed moving in the right direction, but never in a straight line. At any rate, this sounded correct 50 plus years ago.

This will be an interesting thread. GJS

[RandomHero1090]

Re: random thoughts

Daly may be 50 percent stronger than Howell at pushing motions, but he doesn’t hit a golf ball 50 percent further. In other words, having the ability to move extremely heavy objects with a pushing force, doesn’t directly correlate with moving very light objects very fast.

Ok then, as I retype this message for the 5th time....

How does John Daly hit the ball farther than Charles Howell? Ok, i'll set you up for this one....

STATS:

John Daly - 5'11'', 220 lbs, driving average this year of 307 yards

Charles Howell III - 5'11'', 155 lbs, driving average this year of 297 yards

[kbp]

Re: random thoughts

I think my point is that it is an oversimplification of a VERY complex movement to say that since we are "stronger" in pushing that we should always push, even when brute strength is not required and that "stronger" equates to faster.

Again, I incorporate a lot of "pushing" when I hit, but for me the best ball striking, distance, and accuracy occurs when I feel my right side hitting (pushing) AND my left side pulling.

Good discussion.

[BrianW]

Re: random thoughts

Ok then, as I retype this message for the 5th time....

How does John Daly hit the ball farther than Charles Howell? Ok, i'll set you up for this one....

STATS:

John Daly - 5'11'', 220 lbs, driving average this year of 307 yards

Charles Howell III - 5'11'', 155 lbs, driving average this year of 297 yards

This is a very technical discussion so will tend to be subjective, lets not get upset if someone has a different point of view though.

I would say that if muscles can only pull then Daley must pull better if he can hit further. (pity there is not a smiley for "thinking")

[RandomHero1090]

Re: random thoughts

This is a very technical discussion so will tend to be subjective, lets not get upset if someone has a different point of view though.

I would say that if muscles can only pull then Daley must pull better if he can hit further. (pity there is not a smiley for "thinking")

Not upset, and I hope that nobody takes ANY of my posts that way, ever. I enjoy a good discussion, and believe me, just like my wife always says, i'm NOT right all the time

What I was trying to set up with the weight difference between each player and the effect it has on the force each can generate.

Does Daly apply more force/hit it further because...

1) He has more mass
2) He has a faster swing (I cannot find any data on their swing speeds)
3) He is more efficient in transfering force into the ball
4) A mixture of both

Curious to see the replies <----- is that the thinking smiley?????