Crossing the line/winging elbow

[mulligan9061]

I have posted a video of my swing. I would like any suggestions, tips, drills, or feelings about how I might get the club to a better position at the top instead of crossing the line. Many thanks in advance.

mully

http://www.golf-tuition-online.com/g...9/limit/recent

[mulligan9061]

Re: Crossing the line/winging elbow

Here is a link to the same video on youtube. Maybe that format will be more easily viewed.
YouTube - driver swing
mully

[golfergal]

Re: Crossing the line/winging elbow

I suffer from the same swing flaw...and yet, i seem to come back through impact okay. I was finally resolved to a tip that a pro gave me....we never hit the ball on our back swing..it's what is happening at impact that is key. So, I am working on shortening my back swing, but I don't want to mess up my tempo and then have to retrain my downswing...I am a gal, so some of my backswing tempo is to get me in a good rhythm to generate some clubhead speed. I know if I slow my backswing, and try to concentrate on holding my wrist angle, I'll hit the ball well.

Let me know if any tip has helped you!

[Martin Levac]

Re: Crossing the line/winging elbow

Length versus width. Power versus control.

No need to bring the club so far. You may think that length will produce power. Width will produce as much power but at a lesser cost in control. A wide swing arc means a longer path for the clubhead to travel. In the end, it means as much speed but most important, it means better control. A comparison below:


Long left thumb: (edit: loose long swing) flying right elbow

Club drops lower at the top of the backswing
Swing arc is narrower
Distance traveled by clubhead is shorter
Angle between left arm and club is narrower
Thus, movement between top-of-the-backswing and impact is longer
Acceleration is more violent and more difficult to control

Short left thumb: (edit: tight wide swing) tucked in right elbow

Club drops higher at the top of the backswing
Swing arc is wider
Distance traveled by clubhead is longer
Angle between left arm and club is wider
Thus, movement between top-of-backswing and impact is shorter
Acceleration is smoother and easier to control


The left wrist.

Check your left wrist. Place it in a way that prevents the club from collapsing or drooping at the top for better control. Try it flat first, go on from there. Practice in front of a mirror. As you place the left wrist flat, check the clubface and place it either square or a little closed relative to that flat wrist.

Something to convince you.

Striking a ball is not the same as throwing a ball. Throwing a ball is easy, we throw harder, the ball goes farther. Simple and we can all do it. Striking a ball with a club, on the other hand, is much more difficult to master. It involves two objects that we must strike together precisely to transmit power from one to the other. The more precisely we strike them, the more power we transmit. Conversely, the less precisely we strike them, the less power we transmit.

We often hear to swing smoother or slower or shorter. As we do that, we have more control over the club. We can then strike the ball better than if we swung out of control. The ball goes farther. It's not merely because we swing slower or smoother or shorter. Instead, it's because we have more control to strike the ball properly to transmit more power to it. The harder we swing, the less control we have.

Basically, those who swing out of control play lottery with every shot.


Other things that might help you.

Plant your feet firmly on the ground. You make a move with the left foot at the beginning of the downswing. Perhaps you do this to allow for a greater swing length. While that may produce the desired result, it does it at the cost of control. Look at the comparison again for length/width versus control.

Observe the path of the clubhead. Align it with the target line. At least on the downswing. Striking the ball at an angle will brush the ball. As you brush the ball, you spin it sideways somewhat. Not only is this a loss of control, it's a loss of power. It's best to strike it dead on to transmit all the available power and to send it straight. Anyway, you already brush the ball because of the loft on the club.

Stabilize your head, keep your head still. The better you can keep your head still, the better you can focus your eyes on the task, the better you can perform the task. Some will tilt the head to the side to prevent the shoulder from catching the chin and pulling it away. Others will simply not swing so long to avoid the problem altogether.

Practice in slow motion. It is difficult to learn something new and train our motor cortex to do it correctly simultaneously. It's easier when we do it in slow motion. It has do to with our motor cortex and its ability to perform tasks automatically. When we do it in slomo, we can think it through step by step and make the appropriate corrections right away. With practice, the motions will become automatic just like walking.

Avoid practicing without a ball. If you must, bear in mind that the ball affects the club as it strikes it. It slows down the club and we react to this differently than when there's no ball. For instance, we may attempt to accelerate when there's a ball but not when there isn't.

When striking a ball, we strike the ground afterward. When we swing without a ball, we don't strike the ground at any time. The height of the apex of the swing is different. This difference can account for fat shots, thin shots, slices and whatnots. All this because of the motions practiced without a ball that must then be corrected on the fly when we finally strike a ball.

If you must practice at home or in your garage where you must not strike the ground, simulate striking the ball. Mark the spot on the ground with tape. Address the spot as you would the ball. Swing in slomo up to the spot, touch the ground with the clubhead, drag the clubhead on the ground slowly to simulate making a divot. Repeat. When you swing at full speed and you don't strike the ground, bear that in mind.

When we use the driver, we don't normally strike the ground after the ball because it's on a tee. So perhaps you can practice without a ball with it.

[Started2k3]

Re: Crossing the line/winging elbow

Flat Left Wrist (FLW).

You have the exact same problem I am trying to get rid of ... which is that your left wrist is slightly bent (angle between back of the forearm-wrist-index finger knuckle is less than 180°).

If you want to know what I am doing ... see one of my blog entries.
http://www.golf-tuition-online.com/blog.php?b=29

[qassim]

Re: Crossing the line/winging elbow

I have posted a video of my swing. I would like any suggestions, tips, drills, or feelings about how I might get the club to a better position at the top instead of crossing the line. Many thanks in advance.

mully

http://www.golf-tuition-online.com/g...9/limit/recent

I have a simple suggestion which may help. Basically your right elbow coming away from your body and causing your backswing to become a little too upright.

To help keep the swing on plane, loosen your grip on your right hand and the then as you swing the club feel as though you are pushing club back with your left arrm. This will hopefully keep your backswing on plane and the downswing should then just fall into place.

Hope this helps.

[Neil18]

Re: Crossing the line/winging elbow

Here is a link to the same video on youtube. Maybe that format will be more easily viewed.
YouTube - driver swing
mully

Hi Mulligan,

Got to say you have a lot of good things going on in your swing. The length is as a result of a couple of bits I'd like to highlight. I'm guessing you get the odd slice/heavy fade as well, so we'll look at that too.

This is all how I see it and there will be varying opinons, so you can take it or leave it! I don't mind!



Above is your takeaway. Not too bad at all. As you can see by the red lines, your right arm is too straight at this point, hence you've rolled your wrists a touch in an attempt to get the clubhead going on the correct path, which has opened the clubface. The clubface should be around the blue line and more square - closed.

The yellow line indicates that I like your inward motion of your left arm. Keeps your arms connected to your shoulder turn.



The wrist roll I'm talking about has the effect of making your club flat halfway back with the butt of the club pointing well beyond the ball. This will queue the necessity for a few "rescue moves" later on. Your hands are moving around behind your body (away from the centre of your chest). By now, you have the sort of right arm bend that you should have had in the first photo.



A couple of things to highlight on the above photo. Obviously you know you get long and your right elbow flies out. The right elbow being here isn't a disaster, but I'd like to draw your attention to your grip. You can see a lot of the grip which should still be tucked snuggly in your hands. This has added to your long swing. Keep your grip pressure constant. Don't loosen it for comforts sake.

I have also drawn two parallel red lines to show your arm plane and flat left wrist (both of which are good) but contrast that with the blue line showing your clubface being open in relation to your arm and wrist. Slice country.

There's actually a frame just before you reach the top of your backswing where the clubface is square, then twists open as your grip pressure loosens.

If you could stop your backswing here:



...I'm sure you'll agree it looks fantastic. Legs have retained their address angles and the clubface is square (your flat left wrist rescues the early wrist roll) and you'll notice your elbow "flying" only happens when you go past this point. To me, you right elbow is perfect in this frame. So you do get there, you just go waaaaaaaay past it! You'll shorten it by bending your right elbow earlier (see Sam Snead):



...and keeping that grip pressure firm enough to not let the club move around. So bend that right elbow going back, don't roll your wrists.

I could post some more screenshots of your resultant downswing but I don't think it's necessary at this point. Just let me know if you want to see them.

Aside from what I've pointed out, I like your swing. You have a good platform on which to build.

[Rich01]

Re: Crossing the line/winging elbow

Left hip a little out towards the target at address so you can start the downswing with the hips unless you break the stance with the feet in which I just posted under this section in Hips and Shoulders.

Seems like you are swinging around w/o hip action and coming Over-The-Top.

[Neil18]

Re: Crossing the line/winging elbow

Left hip a little out towards the target at address so you can start the downswing with the hips unless you break the stance with the feet in which I just posted under this section in Hips and Shoulders.

Seems like you are swinging around w/o hip action and coming Over-The-Top.

I think we'd need to see the face-on view for that. But from the video we've got, Mulligan wouldn't be here:



if he didn't have any hip and leg action.

Hips open, shoulders squarer than hips. Generally looks nice to me.

Compare it with this:


The only reason I think Mulligan isn't more open to te target at impact is that he's having to wait for his hands to catch up as they've gone so far back.

I think Sam would be happy enough in the mean time though!

[Rich01]

Re: Crossing the line/winging elbow

Neil

Look at the level shoulders at address. If he had the left hip bumped out to the target at address the right shoulder would be down more.

Level shoulders around in the backswing then they return in the same manner. It even looks like he maybe lifting the left shoulder a little higher in the downswing.

When you keep the shoulders level you are swinging on a horizontal plane and in the downswing since he does not have the left hip bump out towards the target, I see all hips moving forward, even a little sitting like action and the arms and hands are lagging behind and the club is being thrown out.

I will step aside on this one and let you guys go to work.

[Neil18]

Re: Crossing the line/winging elbow

Neil

Look at the level shoulders at address. If he had the left hip bumped out to the target at address the right shoulder would be down more.

Level shoulders around in the backswing then they return in the same manner. It even looks like he maybe lifting the left shoulder a little higher in the downswing.

When you keep the shoulders level you are swinging on a horizontal plane and in the downswing since he does not have the left hip bump out towards the target, I see all hips moving forward, even a little sitting like action and the arms and hands are lagging behind and the club is being thrown out

I will step aside on this one and let you guys go to work.

No need to vacate the premises Rich! We're all here for a healthy debate!

Again, from DTL we can't tell how level the shoulders are. Especially since the camera level is too low anyway. It might make his shoulders seem more level than they are. Plus, I can bump my left hip out at address and still keep the shoulders level. Shoulder tilt is set by one hand being lower than the other on the grip, and hand position in relation to posture (i.e. forward or back). He may have his hands too far back which would flatten his shoulders, but again, we can't tell from this view.

Even so, with more level shoulders, you can still swing the arms more upright. Mulligans posture is quite upright anyway. That's not a bad thing. He clearly isn't wanting his arms closely associated with his body turn. You only swing flat if you allow your arms to go with your body. A flatter arm swing will pull you slightly more upright anyway.

The sitting motion you refer to is a good thing isn't it? All long drive champs have it and all good ball strikers have it. It's something Snead advocated and many have tried to copy. Mulligan is enviable in that regard! He keeps his spine angle beautifully which also indicates proper use of the hips. It's given away by his right hip being lower than his left at impact, which you can only do if you move your left hip out to the left when transferring your weight during the downswing. I don't think I've ever seen any good golfers standing with their left hip bumped out at address. I have seen it used as a swing trigger though (Vijay, for one).

We definately need a face on view to clear things up, I think.

If you would be so kind Mulligan?!

[BrianW]

Re: Crossing the line/winging elbow

Neils Pictures and comments give some nice feedback. You really must keep the butt end of the club level or just inside the extended ball to target line on the way back and in the initial downswing. Your shallow plane will encourage an open clubface and OTT swingpath.

Regarding your flying right elbow, put a head-cover under your right armpit, make half swings and work on keeping it there throughout the back and downswing, then try keeping that feel in your normal swing.

[Neil18]

Re: Crossing the line/winging elbow

Regarding your flying right elbow, put a head-cover under your right armpit, make half swings and work on keeping it there throughout the back and downswing, then try keeping that feel in your normal swing.

A jolly good idea that.

[ben hogan]

Re: Crossing the line/winging elbow

If you could stop your backswing here:

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/f...g?t=1195823750 In post #7

Start your downswing from this postion,what cause's you to
go across the line is your lifting your left heal then replanting
it. Learn to pivot {rotate} from your left side.

Here enjoy!

[Rich01]

Re: Crossing the line/winging elbow

Sports: Sackett - Address that tilt

Tilting out towards the target gives right elbow connection and maintains the left arm close to the body on the downswing.

When you correct one problem, all the pieces of the puzzle can come together and it takes away the other swing problems.

The end of my friendly debate.

Ice and some snow flakes, hope to be out Monday with little posting on the forum.