After 5 years... Hooray for the Veterans of Golf!

[bulldog2k]

Re: After 5 years... Hooray for the Veterans of Golf!

I agree, BDBL. Teaching is an art, and an extremely complex one. I have a degree in it, having spent 4 years in uni studying it, and I only ever felt I scratched the surface. I'm certain there are great golf teachers out there. But - by observation, speculation and hearsay - the good golf teachers seem to be out numbered by the bad ones by about 4 to 1.

I don't know - maybe that's not that different from secondary education after all...

[BrianW]

Re: After 5 years... Hooray for the Veterans of Golf!

Most Golfers are not happy with their game and probably never will be, that is not suggesting they do not enjoy the game. I think part of the enjoyment and fascination is the strive for improvement and the journey that takes.

IMHO not many people can just play the game and play it well, Seve for example has probably played more balls on the practice course that we could shake a stick at.

So, I guess its horses for courses! there is no right way just your own way. To generalise many of us (and this is backed up by the way we berate our skill levels and beat our selves up) have a desire to become a better and better golfer. The journey will be influenced by our natural abilities, the time we have available, our self beliefs, our finances, what help we get and what we are prepared to put in.

To quote Shootin4par (where is he?) Enjoy the journey.

[BrianW]

Re: After 5 years... Hooray for the Veterans of Golf!

I agree, BDBL. Teaching is an art, and an extremely complex one. I have a degree in it, having spent 4 years in uni studying it, and I only ever felt I scratched the surface. I'm certain there are great golf teachers out there. But - by observation, speculation and hearsay - the good golf teachers seem to be out numbered by the bad ones by about 4 to 1.

I don't know - maybe that's not that different from secondary education after all...

Bulldog,

I am not sure whether the lack of confidence in PGA instructors is warranted? I have studied under four of them at one time or another and have found them to be good, OK they have their own personalities and styles but without fail they have been able to give sound instruction and advice. maybe I have been lucky or maybe I just see the best in people, who knows?

Here is a little story I was once told, I hope it helps with the context, if not just discard it:

A young man was walking down a mountain and came across an old man working in the garden of his alpine house.

"Good day" said the old man "where are you going"

"I am going to the village in the valley" said the young man.

"Why" said the old man.

"I don't like the people of the village in the mountain, they are not helpful or friendly and now I want to meet the people in the village in the valley" said the young man.

"What are the people of the village in the valley like?" Said the young man.

"Ah! said the old man, I think you will find them the same as the people of the village in the mountain"

Another young man came down the mountain pass and the old man asked the same question. This young man answered:

" I like the people of the village in the mountain, they were very helpful and friendly"

"What are the people in the village in the valley like?" said the young man.

"Ah! said the old man, I think you will find them the same as the people of the village in the mountain"

[bulldog2k]

Re: After 5 years... Hooray for the Veterans of Golf!

I think that's a fair cop and a fair analogy. I have no direct experience of PGA instructors. My post should, in fairness, have been prefaced with 'The chaps at the club say...' My post was more, I suppose, intended to relect the dissatisfaction of the people I play with and their experiences of tuition, rather than my own.

[bdbl]

Re: After 5 years... Hooray for the Veterans of Golf!

Bulldog,

I am not sure whether the lack of confidence in PGA instructors is warranted? I have studied under four of them at one time or another and have found them to be good, OK they have their own personalities and styles but without fail they have been able to give sound instruction and advice. maybe I have been lucky or maybe I just see the best in people, who knows?

" I like the people of the village in the mountain, they were very helpful and friendly"

"What are the people in the village in the valley like?" said the young man.

"Ah! said the old man, I think you will find them the same as the people of the village in the mountain"

I like to think that I look for the best in people, am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and tend to the view that my glass is half full not half empty. I also wish that my experience of PGA coaches was the same as yours - I'd have got better value for the money I spent for one thing - but unfortunately it's not.

Without doubt the ones I've tried have been knowledgeable and friendly, they were approachable and I think they wanted to help.

I also think that better golfers are more capable of responding to coaching and thus become better and more capable...unfortunately, and fair enough this is only my experience and perhaps not a statistically valid sample , when faced with a poor golfer (me for instance) who is not responding there is generally no teaching Plan B.

It was this inability to change teaching styles and tailor them to the pupil that I was originally highlighting - and I think Bulldog is correct, teaching is difficult and many pros - perhaps not as many the vast majority I suggested - just aren't that good at it.

Its also possible that as well as being a poor golfer that I am a poor pupil and didn't know enough or feel confident enough to say something or suggest a different approach.

[Neil18]

Re: After 5 years... Hooray for the Veterans of Golf!

This discussion is very interesting.

In this world of the human race being able to dissect everything to understand it's nuts and bolts I find general golf improvement one of the great mysteries of the world (along with women, why a microwave can't cook a decent meal, and what the point of a daddy long-legs is).

Why is it that (with more instructors than ever before, better technology, better understanding of physics and biomechanics and psychology) has the average handicap not dropped from 60 years ago?

The very nature of the question highlights the fact that it appears the game is just as hard now as it ever was, despite equipment improvements. Yes, the best are getting better, but aren't they in every endeavour?

Therefore the same reasons that the game was hard 60 years ago may well still apply to the present day. The only constant from instruction/equipment/science between then and now is the human beings involved - the instructors and the pupils.

The instructors of the modern game are more than likely not that different from the instructors of yester-year. They have all the techniques at their disposal in order to teach, yet more equipment to be able to deliver coaching than ever before (slo-mo video, PC's, gadgets etc). So from the instructors point of view the only thing that can be different from instructor to instructor is the ability to recognise the needs of the pupil, and to communicate effectively. If these are the only two variables that discern how well the instructor can teach, then the general improvement of golf instruction as a whole will always be limited by the individuals involved in the task. Some will be good at it, most will not. Let's face it, if the majority of humans were effective at recognising needs and communicating effectively, the world would be a nicer place. Plus, communicating effectively involves listening just as much, if not more than, talking. (says he on his 5th paragraph! )

Now we come to the second person in the equation. The pupil. The pupil, being a human being, will have the same probability of success as the intructor in terms of the ability to recognise needs and communicate. However we're now looking at it from a different angle. The ability to communicate must be forthcoming from the pupil in order to get the best out of the instruction. The pupil must also recognise his own needs for improvement to be able to effectively communicate how he's feeling to the instructor.

In my experience, by far the worst instruction I've received has been the lessons where I couldn't get a word in edgeways because the instructor was so concerned with talking about what he wanted me to do. He didn't have time to listen to me (he was a head pro at my local). Other instructors have seen fit to interrupt me if they believe my current sentence is leading me down a path with which they do not agree (see above re recognising needs and communicating including listening).

It seems I have been extremely fortunate in finding an instructor that is extremely adept at communicating his chosen method of swing/short game instruction and is also willing to listen to what I have to say. As well as looking at a video of me, I think it is imperative that an instructor is told by the pupil what he is feeling, and where he wants to get to.

When I take an hour long lesson with my coach, invariably we spend over half of it talking. Me saying what I'm doing/thinking, what I've heard re this technique/that swing thought etc etc. My instructor explains thoroughly, with examples, where he's going to get me and whether what I've heard is utter bullsh*t or not (you'd be surprised!). I then hit balls for 20-25 minutes and the difference is almost immediate.

Regarding my instructor, I know for a fact that he would not be the best instructor for everyone. He's told me. He gave a lesson to someone recently who didn't say a word for the entire hour. He found it so very difficult to coach him that my instuctor doesn't think the pupil understood everything he wanted him to, but then he wouldn't know cos the pupil never said anything!

To sum up (at last, I hear you mutter) I believe it is important to seek instruction from a qualified professional. Do not, however, be afraid of going armed with a bag full of questions. Be prepared to lay down on the table everything you know about your own swing, everything you know (and think you know) about where you are and where you want to get to and do not fear changing instructors if you come away with unanswered questions, or feel confusion about where you are going. It must be a two-way relationship, otherwise a mediocre relationship will lead to mediocre results. As with anything.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

There is a sub-section to this discussion involving the quality of the standard PGA coaching course as well (uh-oh. Look out. I could offend some people here!). But I wonder how many instructors of over 10 years experience still stick to the text-book and end up producing a string of single-figure handicappers? Apparently not many because the average handicap has not been reduced in 60 years.

I'm wondering if many of the good coaches have been through the qualification then chucked a lot of it away when getting out into the real world. I think it may be like learning to drive. You get taught how to pass your test, not how to drive. If we all took our tests again 10 years after driving, many of us would fail it, but we are so much better drivers than we were (generally!) through experience. Knowledge can be gained from text-books. Experience cannot. Experience is by far the better teacher.

[slater170]

Re: After 5 years... Hooray for the Veterans of Golf!

great post neil up to your usual high standard!

i was planning to book a block of lessons with the head pro at the club i joined in april and so booked a provisional lesson with him just to get an overview of what i needed tuition on.
after 40 minutes on the range he tells me that my fundamentals are solid but i should learn to relax a little more!

then i got a voucher for winning a sub division of a comp so i used it to take a 9 hole playing lesson.

what did i learn in 2 hours with the pro........... zilch

so if im so good at everthing why am i a 22 handicap and feel like i will be stuck on that forever

[BrianW]

Re: After 5 years... Hooray for the Veterans of Golf!

Good post Neil, you make your point well.

I have a theory why the average handicap has not lowered in say 60 years and it's the fact that golf has been opened up to the masses. 60 years ago the game was played mainly by the high middle to upper classes in society (especially in Europe) there were far lower numbers playing the game. I would hazard a guess that the vast majority of players these days are pay and players not club members and do not have a handicap. Not that I am complaining at that, merely suggesting one reason why handicaps remain high.

One other observation is that most players I know have either not taken lessons or have only taken a few, many of them do not practice either.

[BrianW]

Re: After 5 years... Hooray for the Veterans of Golf!

great post neil up to your usual high standard!

i was planning to book a block of lessons with the head pro at the club i joined in april and so booked a provisional lesson with him just to get an overview of what i needed tuition on.
after 40 minutes on the range he tells me that my fundamentals are solid but i should learn to relax a little more!

then i got a voucher for winning a sub division of a comp so i used it to take a 9 hole playing lesson.

what did i learn in 2 hours with the pro........... zilch

so if im so good at everthing why am i a 22 handicap and feel like i will be stuck on that forever

Hmm! Slats, something went wrong there?

I would guess there is not much wrong with your swing and maybe he is correct that tension is affecting your game. What went wrong with the playing lesson?

[Neil18]

Re: After 5 years... Hooray for the Veterans of Golf!

A good point Brian. Don't you also find that the players that practice the least get the most p*ssed off when it all goes wrong..................bizarre!

[slater170]

Re: After 5 years... Hooray for the Veterans of Golf!

Hmm! Slats, something went wrong there?

I would guess there is not much wrong with your swing and maybe he is correct that tension is affecting your game. What went wrong with the playing lesson?

hi brian
not really sure what went wrong maybe i played too well!
i assumed that he would highlight some faults that i could work on but he didnt give me any negative feedback.
the tension thing i think was because i was nervous hitting in front of the pro.
i have hit long straight drives
i have hit long approaches into greens
i can get out of bunkers quite well
i can pitch and chip quite accurately
my putting is becoming reliable
i cant do them all in the same round!
maybe i need to take more time to be consistent with how i set up

[slater170]

Re: After 5 years... Hooray for the Veterans of Golf!

A good point Brian. Don't you also find that the players that practice the least get the most p*ssed off when it all goes wrong..................bizarre!

i get p*ssed off when i practice the day before a comp and get fcuk all back for it!

[Neil18]

Re: After 5 years... Hooray for the Veterans of Golf!

LOL!

It's great isn't it? When you do the equivalent of purposefully turn up early to warm up and hit some balls, flush it on the range then proceed to top your first tee shot and never get it going.

It makes it worse when on the approach to the 18th green you suddenly realise what's been missing............. "Can we go round again?"!

[cyc53870]

Re: After 5 years... Hooray for the Veterans of Golf!

This is so interesting... I noticed that many agree that the vast majority of those teaching golf simply do not know how to teach effectively! Why is this so? Are they greedy, ignorant, lazy, stupid, uncaring or incapable? Or a combination of any of such factors above or is it some other reason? It's a shame to think of all those lessons, effort, time and money wasted year in and year out! Is the public aware of this? It's an outrage.

[BrianW]

Re: After 5 years... Hooray for the Veterans of Golf!

This is so interesting... I noticed that many agree that the vast majority of those teaching golf simply do not know how to teach effectively! Why is this so? Are they greedy, ignorant, lazy, stupid, uncaring or incapable? Or a combination of any of such factors above or is it some other reason? It's a shame to think of all those lessons, effort, time and money wasted year in and year out! Is the public aware of this? It's an outrage.

I am still unconvinced that this is the case. There will of course be some better than others or some that one gels with and some one does not. There are degrees of proficiency in any profession (bit of a mouthful there) as people do not all come out of the same mould.

Now I am not a PGA golf instructor but I have been educated in and studied instructional techniques and have been involved in training people with a wide range of abilities in my own profession. My personal experience with UK PGA golf instructors has been good, the three I have used at one time or another have been patient and knowledgeable, they have been different personalities and had their own methodology but I have been helped by all of them, without fail they have been bloody good golfers too-boot. This is not saying that there will not be the odd bad one out there just as there is the odd student that will not listen to anyone.

(Puts soapbox away and grasps for a pint of warm and weak southern English beer)