Cupped wrists at the top of the swing

[gporrett]

I have a tendency to push shots, which is caused by my left wrist at the top of the swing being too cupped ie closer to 90 degree vertical than flat. Thus opening the face.
I've seen tips which say that this maybe down to wrist roll in the backswing and to concentrate on keeping the club face facing the ball for longer, but this seems to me to be a bit imprecise - like for how long for etc.
Also, if the left hand grip at the start is slightly strong with a 2.5-3 knuckles showing then it seems intuitive that it will be cupped at the top if it wasn't flat at the start.

Confused? I am. Anyone out there had a similar problem with a solution?

[takinitdeep]

Re: Cupped wrists at the top of the swing

Dante teaches the push down move of the right hand straight down not at an angle out, on the left hand to do early wrist hinge. He teaches two knuckles of left hand showing and one knuckle of right hand showing.

Right Hander:

Make this short, it's been a hot day.

People will take the strong grip, say 3 knuckles for our discussion which has the left palm more or less facing the ground.

They swing the club back with the arms and hange from back of the wrist.

In the downswing there is nothing per say to unhinge and they push the ball out to the right.

The left wrist needs to rotate in the backswing and unrotate in the downswing and that happens from hinginging the left thumb backwards.

Hold the club out in front of you at waist high with your strong grip and hinge back from the left thumb and watch the 1st, the second and even part of the 3rd hand knuckle rotate up and then the back of the wrist will hinge.

You will also have the feeling the butt end of the club is moving towards the little finger.

For a 3/4 or full swing that is a slow hinge so you can get a full shoulder turn.

If you have access to Joe Dante material or if Brian drops in, I bet he can send you in the right direction. Now Joe will have less knuckles showing in the backswing because he is pushing down on the thumb at address and making the left hand flat, but he speaks about the left thumb.

The rotation, the spring we want to make tight to release in the downswing is in the left thumb hinging back 1st and not the back of the wrist.

**If you should read something that you do not need to hinge from the thumb, that is true also, but you are getting into a different type of swing action.**

[GoNavy]

Re: Cupped wrists at the top of the swing

My guess is you have an inproper grip, where the left hand and right hand are in a strong position (left hands strong, as you say, and the right under the shaft) and the right over powers the left.

You should understand, the left and right wrist behave differently. The left hinges, the right cups. Here is the difference, hold the left hand out as if to shake hands, that up/down movement of shaking hands is Hinging the right hand makes a slapping movement, Cupping. Cocking the wrist involves both hands up/down, left hinge, right cup, together towards the right shoulder, hence why the grip is strong, "V" pointed at the right shoulder.

So it is very important to get the right hand on top of the club so when the left hinges, the right cups. Otherwise if the right trys to hinge like the left, it will in most cases overpower the left, and the wrist behave in reverse order, and you end up with a slapping motion through the ball and an open clubface. You never want the right wrist to straighten out until well after contact, if you do, it means the clubhead has passed the hands, weather at the top of the swing, bottom or anywhere else in the swing.

[takinitdeep]

Re: Cupped wrists at the top of the swing

Don't you mean the left wrist cocks and the right wrist hinges; these are two different actions. Cocking of the left is movement up and down whereas hinging of the right hand is a backward bending. Hinging and cocking are important differences.
The right wrist must not cock and the left wrist must not hinge, unless you are playing left handed.

My guess is you have an inproper grip, where the left hand and right hand are in a strong position (left hands strong, as you say, and the right under the shaft) and the right over powers the left.

You should understand, the left and right wrist behave differently. The left hinges, the right cups. Here is the difference, hold the left hand out as if to shake hands, that up/down movement of shaking hands is Hinging the right hand makes a slapping movement, Cupping. Cocking the wrist involves both hands up/down, left hinge, right cup, together towards the right shoulder, hence why the grip is strong, "V" pointed at the right shoulder.

So it is very important to get the right hand on top of the club so when the left hinges, the right cups. Otherwise if the right trys to hinge like the left, it will in most cases overpower the left, and the wrist behave in reverse order, and you end up with a slapping motion through the ball and an open clubface. You never want the right wrist to straighten out until well after contact, if you do, it means the clubhead has passed the hands, weather at the top of the swing, bottom or anywhere else in the swing.

[GoNavy]

Re: Cupped wrists at the top of the swing

Don't you mean the left wrist cocks and the right wrist hinges; these are two different actions. Cocking of the left is movement up and down whereas hinging of the right hand is a backward bending. Hinging and cocking are important differences.
The right wrist must not cock and the left wrist must not hinge, unless you are playing left handed.

LOL...you say tomato, I say tomoto, semantics, which is why I explain my definition. I consider Hinging as up/down, cupping as back/forth, and cocking as a combination of the two. I suppose it depends on what part of the country and what era your brought up in, also why golf instruction is so messed up. Different definitions of the same action. I agree, they are two different actions between the two wrists, the problem comes when a player has both wrists doing the same actions, regardless of what we name it, both hinging or both cupping, or both slapping.

I applied my definition to avoid the above, I don't like hearing someone say to hinge or cup the wrist, because it implies that both hands/wrist do the same thing, which they don't.

Just to kinda add a note, it really doesn't make any difference what we call it, if anybody wants to use any other term fine, what is important is the action here of the wrist, apply any term that makes it easier to understand the differences.

[Timothy Slaught]

Re: Cupped wrists at the top of the swing

Hello All:

If you look at the impact position of all good players the lead wrist (left in this case) would be flat and the right cupped somewhat. This is just for that fraction of a second that is impact but it must happen. This compresses the ball properly for irons and creates the correct loft of the club face thus trajectory of ball flight for the woods.

Not all players, of various levels, reach the top of the backswing with the left wrist flat. Certainly, the grip position can influence this. Stronger grip certainly equates to more cupping at the top.The problem with many higher handicaps is that they grip the club too tightly thus are never able to flex the left wrist into the flat position at impact. You need to have the wrists and hands supple enough to accept the flat wrist position through the strike of the ball. Good players who are cupped at the top are obviously removing that cup from the top into impact.

Try a lighter grip pressure and you will be surprised how lightly you can hold the club and still swing in control. You will need to get used to this and it may take some time especially if you currently hold the club tightly.
You should hold the club lightly enough where if someone were to grap the head of the club they could easily rotate it back and forth. The sensation you would have holding the club is the wrists being supple enough to move with the club being rotated.

Also try to hold the club more toward the fingers. Try to get with an instructor or purchase a grip trainer (pre molded to position the hands correctly). The proper grip position and tension level is a fundemental every player needs to master.

[GregJWillis]

Re: Cupped wrists at the top of the swing

I sure hope the slap gets timed perfectly...every time.
I also hope that under pressure you have nerves of steel.

That link just gave me chills...you would never see the leading arm in that position by a pro...ever, unless they were trying to hook it around a barn.

[BrianW]

Re: Cupped wrists at the top of the swing

I always find this video from Mel Sole great at showing the relationship between the grip and cupping of the left wrist at the top:

Golf Schools » Ritson-Sole Golf School » February 2006: Examining your grip » Top 25 golf instruction

[TeachingPro]

Re: Cupped wrists at the top of the swing

I have a tendency to push shots, which is caused by my left wrist at the top of the swing being too cupped ie closer to 90 degree vertical than flat. Thus opening the face.
Confused? I am. Anyone out there had a similar problem with a solution?

Hmmm, here's a problem that's going to cuase even more confusion. An open club face won't cause a push. An open club face will cause a slice. A push is the result of a SWING PATH (nothing to do with club face) that is inside to outside with a club face angle that is square top that swing path. If you don't believe me (and trust me I am correct), check the posts about the 9 ball flight laws.

Your cupped wrist has got zero to do with your push, your club face is squaring up at impact, which is why the ball goes straight right and not slicing to the right.

To straighten out your push, your need to get your swing path to change from inside-square-outside to inside-square-inside.

Need more help? Post again and I'll help you square up the swing path a little.

[bill reed]

Re: Cupped wrists at the top of the swing

hi
like Graham said the push had to do with the swing path it the same with the pull, if the ball fades or hooks the thats the club face open or closed. if you look at brian's lessons he has a picture showing what give you what shot and once you know that the you know what your doing wrong.
i think Graham should be able to help you sort out you problem.
bill

[BrianW]

Re: Cupped wrists at the top of the swing

Hmmm, here's a problem that's going to cuase even more confusion. An open club face won't cause a push. An open club face will cause a slice. A push is the result of a SWING PATH (nothing to do with club face) that is inside to outside with a club face angle that is square top that swing path. If you don't believe me (and trust me I am correct), check the posts about the 9 ball flight laws.

Your cupped wrist has got zero to do with your push, your club face is squaring up at impact, which is why the ball goes straight right and not slicing to the right.

To straighten out your push, your need to get your swing path to change from inside-square-outside to inside-square-inside.

Need more help? Post again and I'll help you square up the swing path a little.

Hi Graham,

Do you disagree with Mel Soles video help from that link in my last post? Mel suggests that there is a relationship between the strength of your grip and the cupping in the left wrist that can cause a push.

[TeachingPro]

Re: Cupped wrists at the top of the swing

Well, no I don't disagree entirely. I think the stronger your grip, the less your hand muscles are able to cause the "cupping" but at the same time, they are less able to rotate and pronate, which causes other problems if you have a wristy action.

Mel's opinion and mine are exactly that - opinion. But they have some common factors too.

[bill reed]

Re: Cupped wrists at the top of the swing

hi
trevino use to grip the club shaft with the last three fingers of his left hand hard when he reached the top of his swing then relaxed, sort of gave it a tight squease, he felt it relaxed his fingers on the downswing and let his wrists work naturaly.
do you think this is a good idea????
bill

[TeachingPro]

Re: Cupped wrists at the top of the swing

I'm hesitant to say "no" but I do agree with elements of his swing thought. I think for most amateurs, that could be too much thinking and too much execution to do within such a small time frame.

But: I like the gripping tighther with the last 3 fingers, sure, and I like the relaxed fingers and grip through impact.

But: Lee was a slicer - always was and still is, so how much that helped him to starighten out his ball flight is debatable.

[bill reed]

Re: Cupped wrists at the top of the swing

thank's graham that makes sense to me.