Question about hip turn

[ubizmo]

Re: Question about hip turn

Ian, I am, in fact, that bad. My best guess is that I'm bad because I have very little natural athletic ability and therefore I have to learn laboriously things that come fairly easily to some others. Having said that, I would certainly prefer not to have to focus on body parts, swing mechanics, and so on. My experience so far has been that if I don't focus on these things, I lose the small gains I have made over the past four years.

In the case of hip turn....if I don't make a conscious effort, they just don't turn. My first year of playing golf, my swing was completely flatfooted. My full swing was almost what you might think of as a long "pendulum" style putting stroke--square to the ball all the way through. I had no real awareness of what I was doing, and no thought that I should do it differently (expect that it didn't work well, of course). From there to where I am now has been a process of trying to swing with my body, not just my arms. I am still a long way from that goal, but I do hit the ball much better now. I'd estimate I only mis-hit about 20% now, and I think it's because I still don't know how to move my hips properly. I could be wrong. The instructors I've been to haven't helped much, so I'm trying to work it out on my own.

[Ian Hancock]

Re: Question about hip turn

Ok Todd,

Firstly, you say your hips don't turn, this is a good thing, like wringing a dish cloth full off water you twist it, this is what you are trying to achieve with your body, upper body turns against a stable bottom.

This is a little myth thou, as your hips must turn slightly, watch the clip of Adam, you have to click it twice to view it on youtube, it is a perfect example of hip rotation, mostly forward not back.

Ian.

[ubizmo]

Re: Question about hip turn

Yes, the video of Adam shows it perfectly, and it also illustrates how the hips turn around the spine axis, which gives me some useful info. The other thing is how they are open at impact. I haven't yet figured out how to do that, despite doing a lot of Greg Willis's Impact Drill. It's just hard to do.

[Ian Hancock]

Re: Question about hip turn

hmmmmmm,

Hard to describe as this happens soooo fast.

ah just had a test in the office, I push with right foot big toe lifting heel off ground on downswing.

If you look so does Adam.

Ian.

[The Hud]

Re: Question about hip turn

Over the years I have looked at many causes for my bad swing, I have come to the inescapable conclusion that it is my hip turn. I don’t intend to argue with those who are far more knowledgeable than me, I can only speak from a personable situation and that is to say I do have wooden hips, I do have to at least concentrate on turning my hips a half turn before letting my shoulders drag them around the rest of the way. Whenever I then want to improve and go to pro or read a golf book it comes back to “Don’t turn your hips, let your shoulders do it”, if I am with a pro or on the range after 30 or 40 swings I will improve, but as soon as I go and have a game it’s back to the same old **** again. By the way I did go and try what was said in the above posts, but to no avail, what may work for the majority, will not necessary work for everybody, some may be born with stiffer hips than others and may need a bit of coaxing.


What I believe is happening is, because my hips are not turning, instead of swinging my arms in an upwards motion I am swing them back around the body, which also cause the body to rise and in my downswing I swing on an out to in plane, long irons go right short iron left, mid irons anywhere.
I looked at this ‘Hitman Drill’ on the page below, but I consider the reason this drill works is because by placing the right foot opposite the heel of the left foot as the pro describes, half turns the hips around already. It is getting the hips to start from a square position that is the problem and take from a man that has tried all kinds pf exercises, that wont help.

http://www.calhoungolf.com/Tiger's%20Hip%20Turn.htm

[GoNavy]

Re: Question about hip turn

Over the years I have looked at many causes for my bad swing, I have come to the inescapable conclusion that it is my hip turn. I don’t intend to argue with those who are far more knowledgeable than me, I can only speak from a personable situation and that is to say I do have wooden hips, I do have to at least concentrate on turning my hips a half turn before letting my shoulders drag them around the rest of the way. Whenever I then want to improve and go to pro or read a golf book it comes back to “Don’t turn your hips, let your shoulders do it”, if I am with a pro or on the range after 30 or 40 swings I will improve, but as soon as I go and have a game it’s back to the same old **** again. By the way I did go and try what was said in the above posts, but to no avail, what may work for the majority, will not necessary work for everybody, some may be born with stiffer hips than others and may need a bit of coaxing.


What I believe is happening is, because my hips are not turning, instead of swinging my arms in an upwards motion I am swing them back around the body, which also cause the body to rise and in my downswing I swing on an out to in plane, long irons go right short iron left, mid irons anywhere.
I looked at this ‘Hitman Drill’ on the page below, but I consider the reason this drill works is because by placing the right foot opposite the heel of the left foot as the pro describes, half turns the hips around already. It is getting the hips to start from a square position that is the problem and take from a man that has tried all kinds pf exercises, that wont help.

http://www.calhoungolf.com/Tiger's%20Hip%20Turn.htm

You know as far as I know, you'll not going to jail or get arrested for not setting up square, there is no law I know off. Some people just need to make setup correction to play their best. Billy Casper played quite well with the setup you just describe, very closed stance. Lee Trevino played with a very openned stance. Calvin Pete played with a very bent left arm, in his case it was from a childhood accident, his arm was premantly bent, but played very well, there was even one guy, can't remember his name, he played right handed with the left hand low, below his trailing right hand, completely wrong by anybodies teaching, he played pro for many years.

You have to remember, any golf instruction is not set in stone, just what works most of the time for most people. The only thing that really matters in the golf swing is swing path, angle of attack, face angle at impact, and sufficent swing speed, and is all that repeatable. That is it, in a nut shell. Golf instructors, good one, attempt to take what you have naturally and accomplish the above, bad instructors will take a swing model like Tiger and try to make everyone swing like him, just not going to happen.

So if you need to have your hips closed at address, and it makes you swing at a better path, do it. Now there are some basics you must do, I know of no good golfers that don't shift the weight forward in the downswing, or have bad balance, or bad grips on the club, or poor alignment (by the way, alignment has nothing to do with where your feet are pointing), but they all have the above in regards to path, face, and angle of attack, and they all have repeatable swings and good grips. You can tell by the ball flight, regardless of weather they fade or draw, it is well struck.

[The Hud]

Re: Question about hip turn

Thanks for your advice GoNavy, I looked on the Hitman Drill as just that, a drill, I never gave thought to lining up with a closed stance unless I was trying to draw the ball, but I will certainly give it a try next time I am on the range, I will report back how I get on.

[takinitdeep]

Re: Question about hip turn

As we age, our hip flexors can shorten which makes it difficult to turn them. I do 20 or so different flex and hold exercises a day. One is called Piriformis hip stretch. Look it up through google and or google hip flexor exercises and by doing these you will gradually loosen up and break up adhesions etc.
The quads and lower back also contribute to stiff hips.

You know as far as I know, you'll not going to jail or get arrested for not setting up square, there is no law I know off. Some people just need to make setup correction to play their best. Billy Casper played quite well with the setup you just describe, very closed stance. Lee Trevino played with a very openned stance. Calvin Pete played with a very bent left arm, in his case it was from a childhood accident, his arm was premantly bent, but played very well, there was even one guy, can't remember his name, he played right handed with the left hand low, below his trailing right hand, completely wrong by anybodies teaching, he played pro for many years.

You have to remember, any golf instruction is not set in stone, just what works most of the time for most people. The only thing that really matters in the golf swing is swing path, angle of attack, face angle at impact, and sufficent swing speed, and is all that repeatable. That is it, in a nut shell. Golf instructors, good one, attempt to take what you have naturally and accomplish the above, bad instructors will take a swing model like Tiger and try to make everyone swing like him, just not going to happen.

So if you need to have your hips closed at address, and it makes you swing at a better path, do it. Now there are some basics you must do, I know of no good golfers that don't shift the weight forward in the downswing, or have bad balance, or bad grips on the club, or poor alignment (by the way, alignment has nothing to do with where your feet are pointing), but they all have the above in regards to path, face, and angle of attack, and they all have repeatable swings and good grips. You can tell by the ball flight, regardless of weather they fade or draw, it is well struck.

[mont86]

Re: Question about hip turn

Ubizmo,

You know I am far less technical than most, but let me ask you this.

Me and you standing by a pond, and I say to you throw this stone as far as you can into the pond..................!!!

Q; would you think about where your hips are during your throw?.Not likely

Q; would you hips help propell the stone further? Yes of course

Why because they act naturally to help the body rotate back and through to fire the stone as far as possible.....................without thinking about them.

Food for thought.

Ian.

Thanks Ian, finally someone I can understand.

I can't handle anymore swing thoughts this week.

[The Hud]

Re: Question about hip turn

I realized that I had my left foot pointing too far towards the target so I changed that so both my feet are only slightly angled outwards. The next change I made was after watching the video of Adam Scott, even when I didn't actually turn my hips with my shoulders, I would at least stiffen my left hip in order to tie it to the shoulder turn, so I turned my shoulders without any connection at all to the lower part of my body and found that my hips were turning quite freely and I was hitting the the ball pretty well. I was delighted with my drives, still had a few loose iron shots but over all I am very happy with the way I am hitting them. Thanks a lot for all your advive and help, I do appreciate it.

[Timothy Slaught]

Re: Question about hip turn

Hello All:

I just returned from watching a practice round (Pro-Am Day) for the final Major for the Champions Tour today in Baltimore, Maryland. As is my usual custom, I spent most of my time at the range watching these truly amazing golfers warm up and practice.

I was in awe of the fantastic swings all of the players (pros not necessarily the ams) display. I was paying particular attention to the hip action of the swings. They all have a motion at the takeaway that shifts weight to the right side. This is a very small move and some even trigger their swings with this motion. It is generally a slight shift (1 or 2 inches tops) of the right hip away from the target as they begin to take the club back.

As the backswing progresses, they rotate their right hips to generally 45 degrees versus a shoulder turn of 90. Interestingly they sequence this turning of hips and shoulders at varying rates among the players which gives them all a distinctive look to their overall backswing action. Jay Hass, performs this move in a somewhat disjointed timing while a player like Tom Watson for example has a more rythmic look. Still, at the top they all for the most part have the hips at 45 and shoulders at 90.

The transitional move into downswing is where, I believe, the pros have a great mastery of the their hip rotation back towards the target that allows them to play as they do. When that right hip reaches 45 degrees from the target line at the top, that hip is several inches away from the target line obvioulsy as it has rotated away from it's position at set-up. As they make their hip rotation for the transition down, that right hip DOES NOT move back towards the target line. It stays back as the left hip begins its move to the left and away from the target line. The right hip stays away from the target line as it moves along with the left hip to the left. This little bit of trickery does four unique and very positive things.

1) Allows very precious room for the right elbow to drop in the slot where the right hip vacated and stays away from. If the transition down includes moving the right hip back towards the target line you loose those valuable inches where the right elbow needs to drop.

2) This hip rotation shifts weight to the left side in a subtle manner which avoids an over shift of balance past the left foot. It's hard to get to forceful as you keep the right hip back.

3) Keeping the right hip away from the target helps counterbalance the act of swinging the club down which with gravity has an effective weight over 100 lbs.

4) Keeps the spine angle intact into the downswing. If you move the right hip back towards the target line you tend to thrust up out of posture.

If you look at the footage of Adams Scotts swing in this thread, you can clearly see his right hip stay back away from the target line as he shifts to the left side. In fact, it moves several inches right during transition (as viewed on your monitor) but clearly stays back.

At the tour event today, a gentleman had a small but very nice video camera and he was shooting most of the players as they hit drivers. We went back and looked at several in slow motion and they all have this move. Not one moved the right hip back towards the target line until impact and at that point the hips were at least 35 degrees open to the target.

I believe this pro quality hip pivot move gives them their great distance and accuracy. And it surely does not look like something you see from a high handicap.

[The Hud]

Re: Question about hip turn

Thanks Ian for posting Adam Scott's swing. It has made me realize that there is nothing wrong with my hips after all, I have been just trying too hard to turn them, now I concentrate on turning my shoulder and I am very happy with my hip turn. I also realize that my casting has nothing to do with my hip turn on the back swing, but everything to do with it on my downswing, I have discovered that I am not turning around the right knee but swinging down inside it. My game is suddenly looking up, although I forget at times and do the old move, but practice makes perfect, I hope. Thanks all.

[Rackster]

Re: Question about hip turn

Tim, you are on the right track.

What is wonderful about the whole process. It is how you set the weight of left foot to the ground that will give you the firm left side and doing all the things you stated or it is how you set the weight of the right foot to the ground to do all the things you stated. Plus there is a no sway factor in the backswing.

Just what you do with the feet can cause you to have many hours of practice or little or none.

Hi C Mays

You say there is now sway in the backswing (of course which there should be not), but do you agree with Tims "slight shift" of the hips in the takeaway? I think the slight hip shift in the takeaway is a good move as it stops a reverse pivot, by not allowing the hips to turn too early. I think Greg Norman had a move he called "Right Pocket Back" to start his swing. I think Leadbetter calls the move Tim is on about a "lateral rotation".

Rackster

[oldwease]

Re: Question about hip turn

I hadn't given too much thought to the hips before this thread came up but there's one other thing worth considering.

We know basically that we want to rotate the hips rather than sway too much and that the hips are fixed in relation to one another (but I still understand what is meant with holding the right hip static and rotating the left). However, you also need to think about what's happening to the legs.

For example, stand up straight and place your feet, say, shoulder width apart. Now simply move the right hip back. Most likely, without any attempts to do otherwise, the upper right leg will also start to rotate with the hip. So, if your right knee is facing forward at the start, it could well now be pointing over the right foot.

Now, do the same thing, but don't let your right knee rotate very much - keep it in position, pointing forward. Notice the greater coil that is built up in the top of the right leg. That small thing gives you a much more powerful turn (or potential power), improves overall balance and, I suspect, also prevents excessive sway to the right.

[Timothy Slaught]

Re: Question about hip turn

Hello All:

Rackster, just to clarify an important point on my post about the hip pivot action. That slight lateral move to the right to start the backswing is very very subtle. The right hip may move just an inch or two at most before turning into the "right pocket back". By the way that right pocket back is a very simple and effective swing thought. In fact, I use "right pocket back" for the backswing. And "right pocket STAYS back" for my transition move.

This slight lateral move helps get the lower body active in the swing and helps facilitate weight transfer to the right side. It is most definitely not a sway but just a slight bump to get things flowing. If the feet remain static in the swing at the start, it can have a negative chain of reaction effect.

Someone in this thread mentioned not thinking about the hips. This is a major problem but a very common one because how often in everyday life do we think about the movement of our hips. Even when participating in other sports we do not really consider their contributions. In golf it is a little different and this unusual motion of the hips sets up the correct points of balance & gravity in the swing. When this hip action is understood and performed correctly, many of the other correct actions you read about on this site will become more automatic. Most certainly the right hand drill as you will have cleared the correct path to allow the club to swing at the target wich promotes the flat left wrist and bend right at impact.