New instructional product - feedback wanted

[DigitalPro]

This seems to be an active and rather large community of golf enthusiasts... the kind that can give me the feedback I need. I am looking for your thoughts on a new instructional product my company introduced last week. This is not a pitch to sell the product, though in all honesty, if that happens... great. This is an honest search for meaningful feedback, because I believe in this product and want help in making it better and seeing it help other golfers who have struggled with their game like I have.

Seems to me that the bottom line for all instructional systems is what actually happens on the course. Hours spent pounding balls at the range, studying books and magazines, or researching on the web doesn't really make much difference if one's game doesn't improve. Even lessons from a PGA pro are not of enough value if scores don't drop.

I've tried all of the above approaches, only to get on the course and find my swing and my game break down... not all of the time, but too often. Worst thing is, I usually don't know why. I don't know what I did wrong. I can guess, but that's about it. (I'm about a 12 handicap.)

In an effort to address this problem, I decided to build something simple and inexpensive that could record my swings on the course and provide a way for me to get them analyzed. I used my background as a computer programmer and avid golfer to put this system together. From my own experience, I know the system works.

I introduced the product last week through a press release anyone can find by googling "golf pro in a bag." Sales have started and a business has begun. But I have important questions I'm not sure of the answers to and I'd really appreciate feedback from you folks. The web site is here: http://www.digitalprogolf.com.

1. Perceived value. What questions come up for you in considering the product, in terms of what it can do for your game?

2. Pricing. I offer two ways to get into the system. Buy it for $289 and pay no subscription fees for the first year (for access to the "premium" program features), or pay $149 and $14.95 per month (fixed for 12 months). How does this pricing strike you for the value offered by the product? Is it too high, too low, or just about right?

3. I know from my own experience and the experience of others who have used this system that it doesn't significantly effect the pace of play. I've put up a video showing setup and use of the unit during play. Are you convinced this is not an issue or is this a point of concern? Remember... if you agree that analyzing one's actual on-course swing is vital to improvement, there's no other way to achieve this goal other than to allocate some minimal amount of time to recording those swings.

4. While you can't experience all of the software tools available through this product (without actually buying it), I would like to hear of any tools you believe are vital to learning through video analysis which might be lacking in the software. I've included the standard ones, such as drawing lines and circles, side-by-side comparison to a pro, sequencing the swing, built-in teaching library, and the ability to have your swing analyzed by a PGA pro. Anything else?

I'll take any feedback I can get. I appreciate your thoughts a great deal.

I'm sure they'll be some here who think this post is mostly an attempt to sell my product, but I can only state that that is not the case. Of course I want to sell the product, but that's only going to happen if I've done my homework and made it into something of value. I have talented people working with me, but it's not enough. I need to hear from avid golfers like yourself.

Thanks.
Richard Miller, CEO
Digital Pro Golf

[GregJWillis]

Re: New instructional product - feedback wanted

You will have 2 big problems. V1 and CSwing already exist, and are 50x better then what you have there. They also have a free version, + premium versions for less then yours that gets you all the access to pro swings and analysis.

As for the idea that getting an on-course swing has some merit, but I can imagine that this swing will also have 2 problems. You *know* you are being filmed. This creates a special mode you get into, and it is never the same as your real true swing (but any camera has this affect). And unless you also describe your intension of each swing prior to the shot and the conditions, you have too many variables to properly evaluate each swing. Unless all you want to do it get driver swings, and that you can do on the range. The purpose of this system I would assume would be to get
all the special type of shots you wouldn't get on the range. So there needs to be quite a bit of extra work involved in a proper eval. You said setup is minimal, but I would guess otherwise. To get anything worth while to look at later and know what you were looking at while you were looking at it, you would have slowed the group you were with, and created a backup 4 holes deep, only to have the ranger chase you down and discover you were taping! Be lucky you actually get the thing back after your round.

The only real way to get on-course evaluations (proper evaluations) is to take a plyaing lesson with a qualified pro. Imediate feedback, properly contexed, and meaningful to you at that moment. Have you actualy taken a real playing lesson? You say you don't believe they help? I would contend that for the price you want for this system $289, is better spent with having one real playing lesson...just my thoughts.

As for your website, average quality and nothing exciting. Your video of the software needs to be done professionally. Your own voice and mouse movements thumbling through actaully does you more harm then good.

[DigitalPro]

Re: New instructional product - feedback wanted

Thanks, Greg. This is exactly the kind of feedback I am hoping for. I'd like to respond to your points.

1) I have seen the V1 and CSwing products. In my opinion and the opinion of a number of PGA pro's who have reviewed those two products and mine, they both suffer from at least four big problems:

- too complex for the average user;
- poor integration with getting swings analyzed by a pro;
- those analyses cost too much;
- they offer no affordable, easy way for the average golfer to capture their swings on a regular basis.

Sure, anyone can buy a digital camcorder and use the V1 or CSwing products, but no one would take most of the camcorders onto the golf course... or even drag it out to the range. Some golfers will, but only a relatively small percentage. The Digital Pro product carefully and fully integrates an easy-to-use camcorder into the software.

2) With respect to your second point, the aspect of getting one's swing filmed during play is only "strange" for about the first 10 times. After that, you totally forget about the camcorder and swing normally.

3) As far as getting the right angle is concerned, we've had a half dozen PGA pro's work with the system regularly. They all report that this is not a problem. The user takes five paces from the ball, lines up roughly in the right direction, and the camcorder does the rest. It's not always perfect, but for 90% of golfers, it will consistently show 90% of their problems in a reliable way.

4) A typical "on course" lesson with a pro is at least $75 - $100. While you can definitely get a lot from that, it simply doesn't get at the fundamental problem... that being that, after a pro shows you what to work on, you need to practice that issue dozens of times (if not far more than that) on and off the course to fix it. The best way to do that is with continuous video feedback. This is why most people don't get lessons (statistics show only about 10% of golfers get lessons). People pay a lot for a lesson but usually can't correct the problem through practice on their own after the lesson... primarily because the body tends to repeat the same old patterns again and again. The fastest way to address that problem is with continuous video feedback. Simply trying to remember what a pro told you during a given lesson usually won't fix the problem. I know... I've been down that road too many times (and spent a lot of money trying it).

5) You are definitely right about the quality of the software demo video. It's not professional enough. Perhaps it's better to remove it. Thanks for being honest about that.

Again, I really appreciate your feedback.

Richard

[Neil18]

Re: New instructional product - feedback wanted

In the interest of honesty I shall get straight to it.

I don't think this product adds any value. I understand the viewpoint that people may swing differently on course to their swings on the range. The majority of golfers understand this. Based on this premis, videoing it will only solidify the fact that they do indeed swing it differently on the course. However, to know this, they must take the time to go and film it on the range anyway. Anybody playing golf who doesn't have the time or inclination to do this in the first place will struggle to improve.

Videoing your swing on the course or on the range doesn't actually provide any feedback as to how to swing it a different way, for example, in order to correct a fault. If it were that easy, forums like this wouldn't exist, and the golfing world wouldn't be saturated with gismos and gadgets that still don't reduce the average handicap. You will be adding to the list of gismos and gadgets. Of course, this is where you have introduced the "lesson" aspect of your product.

This leads to the usage of the footage. As already mentioned by Greg, you have some stiff competition from a couple of well dug-in products in CSwing and V1Home (which provides lessons as well for cheap and only costs about $20 to get in the first place. Ok, you gotta buy a camera, but so many people have one already), plus forums such as this for help and advice and, of course, local pro's that people see anyway. If a person is too stupid to be able to use a simple system like V1, then golf should be the least of their worries.

Really, what is being provided is another tool by which to communicate with another pro for another opinion on what is wrong with their swing. Another opinion is not, in my opinion, worth $150 then $15 per month.
As avid golfers, we already know that we need to try different things to correct a problem and there is a myriad of methods by which to get the required feedback, and the diagnosis and solution can vary from instructor to instructor. One can spend years trying to find the right thing that works. Your product doesn't deliver that. It just delivers another way of attaining another opinion.

Plus, I don't want to add another thing to my bag to carry around with me. It's heavy enough and full up as it is.

Of course, the real crux of the matter is that the difference between swinging well on the range and poorly on the course is a matter of mental application. Videoing a swing doesn't show that up. If a golfer swings it well on the range, he can swing it well. If he swings it poorly on the course, he has lost his nerve and has poor/misdirected focus during play and practice.

After all that, the ability to sell a product and be a successful businessman doesn't necessarily rely on the quality of and necessity for the product. "Ice to eskimows" and all that. If you've sold some already then some people are willing to spend the cash on this. If your target is to get a good income from this gadget, then your seem to have made a start. If your target is to improve peoples golf in a quicker, more efficient, cost-effective manner then this product fails on all fronts, in my opinion.

One final thought. If I'm stuck behind a hacker who's already holding me up and he gets a camera out I'm gonna play a low stinger at his head.

Sorry.

[slater170]

Re: New instructional product - feedback wanted

One final thought. If I'm stuck behind a hacker who's already holding me up and he gets a camera out I'm gonna play a low stinger at his head.

LMAO

back to the drawing board methinks

[DigitalPro]

Re: New instructional product - feedback wanted

Neil,

Thanks for taking the time to reply. These kinds of replies help my company understand concerns people have about this type of product.

I understand your points. It's this paragraph of yours, "Of course, the real crux of the matter...", which most sums up your point. But I have to disagree with what you are saying based on my own personal experience and the experience of seeing hundreds of people practice on the range and then on the course.

The problems which occur on course are not mostly mental for those players who swing fairly well on the range but have more problems actually playing (which, I believe, is probably true for a great majority of golfers on this forum). These problems tend to fall into the following categories, none of which are primarily mental or can be easily practiced on the range... and all of which can be addressed by the Digital Pro system:

- inability to properly aim the body when the target is not simply "straight out and very wide" (as is the case on the range);

- uneven lies (a major problem and source of many extra strokes);

- hitting out of the rough (another big source of strokes);

- bad tempo;

- swinging harder than one would on the range.

There are others. This is just a short list.

The Digital Pro system is definitely designed for the driving range as well as the course. While some golfers do have a video camera suitable for a driving range, they are rarely taken along and used for this purpose (for lots of reasons). We address this issue by allowing the golfer to always have it in the bag and make it very simple to set up and use. And really, it adds almost nothing to the weight of the bag... about the weight of one extra club.

Finally, in response to the issue of slowing down the pace of play, we've found that this system is so compelling in terms of making swing changes when it counts, that golfers will find ways and times to use them that doesn't effect play. There are plenty of off-hours to work with a system like this... even though (as already stated) it doesn't effect the pace of play if used properly. But your point is noted and understood.

Golfers so often spend $300 or more on a new driver, hoping to drop strokes or add substantially more distance. But it doesn't work that way. That money would be far better spent on video... especially on-course video. But that's just my opinion.

Thanks, again, for your feedback. My company needs to do a better job at addressing these points on the web site.

Richard

[GoNavy]

Re: New instructional product - feedback wanted

Are you not watching the golf channel, for inventors only. Proplay is already out, they are way ahead of you, and now have GolfSmith backing them, tough competition.

ProPlay Golf Performance System

[DigitalPro]

Re: New instructional product - feedback wanted

We've been working on this far longer than ProPlay. That product is not well designed or priced.

- It is too expensive... $399 plus a potential $40/month software subscription!
- The video angle (from 6 inches above ground) is incorrect and cannot produce a proper video for analysis.
- Most importantly, their software is almost completely undeveloped. What they sell right now represents about 20% of the functions in our software.
- You have to bend down every time you use that camcorder. I do enough bending down in the course of a round. Adding another 50+ bends (not to mention adjusting of the camera) to my round is not something I'd wish to do.
- The product is not shipping now.
- Golfsmith is not backing them. But even if they were, we are in discussion with other major retailers.

Thanks for the feedback, though. We have a comparison page on our web site comparing that product to ours. The above covers just a few of the ways we believe our product is better.

Richard

[Martin Levac]

Re: New instructional product - feedback wanted

Premise: On-course method is different than on-range method.
Premise: Aesthetically correct swing will produce good result.
Premise: Specific technique is superior to proper practice.

What if my method is the same on the range and on the course? In fact, my method is the same. What if my method is not aesthetically correct according to some model or other? In fact, my method is not aesthetically correct according to any model except my own. What if I use any technique that will produce the desired result? In fact, I use any technique that will produce the desired result regardless of how the technique looks or feels. I simply practice it extensively.

The product does not appeal to me because I see no need to observe a difference since there is no difference. Furthermore, the aesthetics of my method will not help me determine how well I strike the ball. In my opinion, no technique is superior to proper practice. But for somebody who's method must adhere to the premises outlined above, this product will serve the intended purpose.

[olliverwilliam]

Re: New instructional product - feedback wanted

I agree there are already many products available like yours. http://www.gaspsystems.com also have a free version to us along with a wide array of other software.