The Impact Zone!

[BrianW]

Without wishing to becoming a bore on the merits or otherwise relating the 3 Skills teaching method and the book "Nail It" , I would like to open a debate on the pros and cons of it's teaching philosophy: if the following 3 skills are practiced and executed you need not concern yourself with other swing thoughts or body movements, they will happen anyway as the skills improve. It is worth mentioning that the system does have a number of drills and explanations to assist with learning the skills and would suggest that you knew how to take a grip on the club..

Skills:

That someone can be taught to deliver the clubhead on the correct path to the ball through the impact zone such that:

1) It travels on the correct inside, square to inside path

2) It contacts the ball with the appropriate approach angle so that all clubs can make solid contact with their sweetspot

3) The clubface is taken from an open approach that squares then closes through impact to produce effortless power to the shot.

[oldwease]

Re: The Impact Zone!

It basically promotes a square club face at impact with a greater likelihood of hitting the sweet spot. What's not to like about that? Not a bad combination. Also, add in the aditional club head rotation for a little extra power (actually, a noticeable pick up in power by rotating the club head).

The broader point is whether knowlege of the 3 skills is sufficient to build a solid golf swing. That's much more of a stretch. As has been said a number of times elsewhere, there are many things that a lot of people do in their swings which make proper contact very difficult to achieve. If that were not the case, general ball striking would be much better than it is with or without the 3SK.

So, to me, basic swing mechanics, and knowledge of them, is still important. The 3SK's may help improve mechanics, though. Certainly, those who tend to be 'scoopers' should benefit from the realisation that what they're doing is incorrect. Since this is probably a fault in understanding as much as mechanics, 3SK may be a very quick fix.

[BrianW]

Re: The Impact Zone!

It basically promotes a square club face at impact with a greater likelihood of hitting the sweet spot. What's not to like about that? Not a bad combination. Also, add in the aditional club head rotation for a little extra power (actually, a noticeable pick up in power by rotating the club head).

The broader point is whether knowlege of the 3 skills is sufficient to build a solid golf swing. That's much more of a stretch. As has been said a number of times elsewhere, there are many things that a lot of people do in their swings which make proper contact very difficult to achieve. If that were not the case, general ball striking would be much better than it is with or without the 3SK.

So, to me, basic swing mechanics, and knowledge of them, is still important. The 3SK's may help improve mechanics, though. Certainly, those who tend to be 'scoopers' should benefit from the realisation that what they're doing is incorrect. Since this is probably a fault in understanding as much as mechanics, 3SK may be a very quick fix.

Good points OW. I guess the same goes for what is probably the other great golfing problem, that of swinging out to in.

[bill reed]

Re: The Impact Zone!

hi
i tend to go along with what oldwease says and believe that if you have a good golf swing the 3sk will help your ball striking and that hogans 5 fundamentals are all about getting the club to come back from inside to square and to bring in the power just at the right point of the swing. i think there are many ways to do this and no right or wrong way only the one that works for you.
i do think most of us don't work on our ball striking but on how far we hit each club and roughly if it land close to where we aim thats good enough. if we did concentrate more on the contact and hitting the sweet spot the the results would give us all a much more reliable swing.
bill

[ubizmo]

Re: The Impact Zone!

Without wishing to becoming a bore on the merits or otherwise relating the 3 Skills teaching method and the book "Nail It" , I would like to open a debate on the pros and cons of it's teaching philosophy: if the following 3 skills are practiced and executed you need not concern yourself with other swing thoughts or body movements, they will happen anyway as the skills improve.

I guess I'm already on record, but to make my position clear, I think the statement I've highlighted above is false.

To state my view in a different way, practicing the 3 skills, without attention to other swing thoughts or body movements, does not guarantee that the skills will improve. I have no trouble with what the 3 skills are, and I don't deny the importance of understanding them, and not misunderstanding what's supposed to happen at impact. However, "practicing the 3 skills" means practicing the small number of drills described in the book. I see no reason to believe that those drills, and no others, are sufficient to improve the ability of all or most golfers to actually execute the three skills. My own experience strongly suggests they are not sufficient.

[BrianW]

Re: The Impact Zone!

I guess I'm already on record, but to make my position clear, I think the statement I've highlighted above is false.

To state my view in a different way, practicing the 3 skills, without attention to other swing thoughts or body movements, does not guarantee that the skills will improve. I have no trouble with what the 3 skills are, and I don't deny the importance of understanding them, and not misunderstanding what's supposed to happen at impact. However, "practicing the 3 skills" means practicing the small number of drills described in the book. I see no reason to believe that those drills, and no others, are sufficient to improve the ability of all or most golfers to actually execute the three skills. My own experience strongly suggests they are not sufficient.

Interesting comment Tod and I guess you speak from your own experience , It would be good to see how a beginner would progress. I know from my personal experience traditional teaching never explained to me what good impact really was, it showed me many complex ways to bring the club away, down and to a finish but never actually showed me what I needed to get the ball cleanly off the sweet spot and into the air on path to the target. I say this as someone who had more lessons than you can shake a stick at.

After some serious consideration I think there is a reason to believe that if someone can really focus on the clubface through impact then their swing should correct it's self. Many of historys best golfers have executed different swings but the fact remains that they could make solid contact with the ball with the correct swingpath. The other 90% of golfers do not. why?

[ubizmo]

Re: The Impact Zone!

I know from my personal experience traditional teaching never explained to me what good impact really was, it showed me many complex ways to bring the club away, down and to a finish but never actually showed me what I needed to get the ball cleanly off the sweet spot and into the air on path to the target. I say this as someone who had more lessons than you can shake a stick at.

I don't doubt that for a second. I completely and wholeheartedly agree that a lot of golf instruction ignores the essentials of good impact--or they even get it wrong. I was looking at some lessons from a PGA pro (I won't say which one) on YouTube the other day, and this individual claimed that the essential thing for good contact with the ball is to keep the club face traveling along the target line for as long as possible, i.e., to swing the club in a straight line. I have a book on a shelf behind me that says the same thing. I've taken a few lessons, and my instructor never talked about the dynamics of impact. I think he was afraid of boring us.

So there's no question in my mind that there's a lot of outright rubbish floating around in golf instruction sources. This is an area where Joe Hagen's book is exceptionally good, in my opinion. It's clear, focused, and accurate. I certainly don't regret buying it.

After some serious consideration I think there is a reason to believe that if someone can really focus on the clubface through impact then their swing should correct it's self.

This is the part that I don't accept. I think it might correct itself, but it might not. And remember, the book isn't just about focusing; it also prescribes specific drills to cultivate proper execution of the three skills. Are these drills, and only these drills, sufficient for properly executing the three skills? I simply can't see any good reason to believe it. It's possible to know, clearly and accurately, what you're supposed to do, and still persistently fail to do it, despite extensive practice.

In my own case, it was not news to read that I need to hit down into the ball with the sweet spot of the club. This was very familiar to me, and I have golf instruction books that do make a very clear point of this. It also was not news to me that the club face needs to come at the ball on an inside arc and be square at impact. I have, at various times, tried all sorts of ruses to keep the club face square to its swing arc as long as possible, specifically to execute skill 2.

But the reality is, I've had lots of trouble making these things happen. It's not because I haven't understood impact. It's because I lack talent. "Talent" is hard to define, but I don't mean it in any very exalted sense. This kind of talent begins with an ability to control one's body, and we are not all equal in this respect. This is obvious, isn't it? Take any group of people and try to teach them some new physical movement, and some will catch on quickly; others very slowly. Some will learn by watching and imitating; others will need to be told laboriously what they need to do with their bodies. I think most people, myself included, are capable of improving a good bit, but how we improve is likely to vary.

Many of historys best golfers have executed different swings but the fact remains that they could make solid contact with the ball with the correct swingpath. The other 90% of golfers do not. why?

What makes that question even more interesting is the fact that some of those golfers had completely crazy ideas about impact, but those ideas managed not to trip them up.

[BrianW]

Re: The Impact Zone!

I didn't really want to open another debate on the merits of 3 Skills in it's entirety per say, I am convinced there can be no question of how they produce good ball flight if effected. I was more interested in this idea if someone could take all swing mechanics from their mind and only focus on the impact zone whether they could develop a suitable golf swing without being taught it.

If the clubface is approaching the ball on a correct inside arc, at the correct angle of decent and at a suitable speed to create good ball contact then what has gone before it must be working. If the club strikes the ball at the optimum point in the swing path whereby effective force and direction is transferred from the club to the ball then what happens after will also be working.

Lets consider a couple of the of the major golf swing faults. Out to in swing and reverse pivot. OK there are lots more but these two are probably found in around 90% of people that play golf.

Out to in swing:
This fault seems to stem from either not understanding clearly how the clubface should approach the ball or a desire to hit early from the top of the backswing. In fact most people with this type of swing don't even seem to know they are doing it. In both cases if you were to concentrate only on the path of the club in the downswing from horizontal behind to horizontal in front and let the rest that preceded and followed just happen, I think you would see the swing start to improve on it's own. Traditional instruction would be working on your takeaway, hip turn, shoulder turn, dropping the club into the slot, unwinding the hips etc.

Reverse Pivot:
Again this can be seen in most golfers and they do not seem to be aware of it, many do it all their golfing lives. Traditionally an instructor would attempt to fix the fault by explaining to the student that they were keeping their weight on the back foot in the downswing and how they should slide and rotate the hips, keep their heads back etc, this is absolutely correct but still does not educate the pupil on why they are doing it. I believe the real problem is due to a poor understanding of how they should be contacting the ball, they are trying to hit underneath it. If they were to understand exactly how the club should be striking the ball and working only on that I think the fault would rectify it's self.

We could extend this theory to many other common faults like Hitting fat, hitting thin and so on.

[ubizmo]

Re: The Impact Zone!

I was more interested in this idea if someone could take all swing mechanics from their mind and only focus on the impact zone whether they could develop a suitable golf swing without being taught it.

The answer is: No doubt some could do this. The remaining question is: Could everyone do this? I believe the answer is no, based on my own experience and common sense. Focusing on doing the right thing doesn't always enable one to do it. But there's another point I want to add to this. Understanding the three skills can help one to make sense of any swing mechanics that one does have to work on. That is, if the instruction says "Do X with your right knee" and then explains why this will help with skill 1, I think the swing mechanics are more likely to be effective. Too often, we see swing mechanics being taught with the explanation that "This is what all the pros do."

One other thing: Skill 3 is not essential to good ball striking. It's an "extra" and shouldn't be presented as a fundamental. One can hit the ball cleanly and accurately without skill 3.

[bill reed]

Re: The Impact Zone!

hi
can you take something out your mind or is it always there in the background. i think you can replace it with different thoughts but i don't think you can control your subconscious the way you are talking about. i think your mind will still use the swing thoughts and the way you have been swinging without you having to think about it.
bill

[BrianW]

Re: The Impact Zone!

The answer is: No doubt some could do this. The remaining question is: Could everyone do this? I believe the answer is no, based on my own experience and common sense. Focusing on doing the right thing doesn't always enable one to do it. But there's another point I want to add to this. Understanding the three skills can help one to make sense of any swing mechanics that one does have to work on. That is, if the instruction says "Do X with your right knee" and then explains why this will help with skill 1, I think the swing mechanics are more likely to be effective. Too often, we see swing mechanics being taught with the explanation that "This is what all the pros do."

One other thing: Skill 3 is not essential to good ball striking. It's an "extra" and shouldn't be presented as a fundamental. One can hit the ball cleanly and accurately without skill 3.

I am trying to keep this discussion away from 3 skills verbatim. I understand that you have some coordination issues Tod but I would also like to steer away from specific individual cases and look at a general scenario.

[bill reed]

Re: The Impact Zone!

hi
does anyone else think there are two types of swing, the hitters and the swinger. with the hitters the focus is on the impact zone and not much else, all they do in the backswing is done to get the club swinging from in to square at impact. but with the swingers the swing is what is important and the ball just gets in the way off the swing. tempo and rhythm are more important in the swinging swing.
bill

[BrianW]

Re: The Impact Zone!

hi
does anyone else think there are two types of swing, the hitters and the swinger. with the hitters the focus is on the impact zone and not much else, all they do in the backswing is done to get the club swinging from in to square at impact. but with the swingers the swing is what is important and the ball just gets in the way off the swing. tempo and rhythm are more important in the swinging swing.
bill

That's an interesting point Bill. What actually happens different in these two swing types other than the way someone perceives their actions?

For example: what is the difference with a hitter than a swinger at the moment of impact or in the period just before or after? Does one swing faster or the other slower.

[bill reed]

Re: The Impact Zone!

hi Brian
i would think the swinger is more consistent in his swing speed and may be a bit slower through the ball but continue with the swing at a speed that would would be steady, i think the hitter slows after hitting the ball more, but sometimes your eyes deceive you, like with Ell's being a slow swinger when he is the same speed as most top pros.
if you watch some of the top pro women that have a wonderful wide flowing swing and are often so different at impact to many men pros.
bill

[bdbl]

Re: The Impact Zone!

That's an interesting point Bill. What actually happens different in these two swing types other than the way someone perceives their actions?

For example: what is the difference with a hitter than a swinger at the moment of impact or in the period just before or after? Does one swing faster or the other slower.

Only popped in to report todays round but saw this thread as well. Tommy Armour in "How do play your best golf" talks about this to the effect that there is no actual difference other than the perception of "grace" in the swinger - both types (and I guess he excludes 100+ lungers from this) have the club head moving at the maximum speed consistent with balance at the point of impact.

Anyway, back to today; played two 18s, 88 in the morning, 87 in the afternoon, both just outside my PB of (86) and in both rounds putted like a muppet (34 ppr).

However the point of the practice rounds was to work on "angle of descent" in particular with the driver which has been causing me so much grief.

In two rounds I only hit one atrocious driver - and that on the 17th 2nd time round when I had realised that a PB was on the cards - now I wasn't splitting the fairway with laser precise 300 yard rockets but I was getting the ball away decently enough to play two consecutive rounds to 18 which is a first.

A couple of times I even felt the open & close occur quite naturally and this might be the key for those of us still struggling with the skills - maybe we should lean more towards "let it happen" than "make it happen".