Relinquishing amateur status

[bulldog2k]

I suppose this is a question slightly related to a previous question about qualifying as a coach under the WGTFGB scheme, but as a teaching professional, clearly that means relinquishing amateur status. I'm just not sure what that actually means.

What are the downsides to this? No more club tournaments, sure, but what else? I mean, as I understand it, there is no such thing as a 'professional', is there? It's just someone who's not an amateur? So what stops me declaring myself a professional tomorrow? Whether or not I make money from it?

It can't be that easy, or surely everyone would suddenly declare themselves as pros to be eligible for q-school?

Also - while I'm at it - what happens to a professional's handicap? Is it automatically go to scratch or does it effectively 'disappear'?

[BrianW]

Re: Relinquishing amateur status

This link gives some good information, there is also information in the R&A rule book.

BBC SPORT | Golf | Get Involved | Want to become a golf pro?

[bdbl]

Re: Relinquishing amateur status

Tha RANDA also publishes 3 guides (pdf) on amateur status

The R&A Rules

[bulldog2k]

Re: Relinquishing amateur status

Thanks all,

I think I'm still missing something on a conceptual level here. Supposing I'm a 10 HC and I find someone daft enough to want to pay me to give them golf lessons.

Clearly I am no longer an amateur, and have to give this status up, meaning I can't enter amateur tournaments, but as far as I can see, little else?

However, according to the R&A, in their words, I now enter a no man's land, where by I am also not a professional.

Well, why not?

What is or would qualify me as a professional under their terms and what does this enable me to do? How does someone, under the R&A terms, turn professional, if not by earning a living at it?

I can undertsnad why the R&A would wish to limit this definition, in the sense that, as far as I understand it, in order to have a punt at the q-school for the europro tour, you have to be either professional, or amateur with a HC of 3 or less, and surely there would be plenty of 5 handicappers out there who say, "Nuts to it - I'll just call myself a pro and have a lash and see what happens".

But what I don't get is what the R&A think a pro is if they don't recognise the PGA Pro system or indeed the WGFTGB or anyone else...

[Martin Levac]

Re: Relinquishing amateur status

Pay fees to a golf organization that the R&A recognizes (read: that pays fees to the R&A) and you will then be recognized as a professional. In other words, the R&A must get their cut.

[bulldog2k]

Re: Relinquishing amateur status

Hmm - interesting. Where does that leave my notional 5 handicapper who then qualifies under the WGTF scheme (who I assume don't pay 'subs' to the R&A?), accordingly starts work and therefore cannot be an amateur, and therefore has no handicap lower than 3, but also is not recognised as a professional.

Is this person caught in the limbo and unable to enter the europro tour?

[GoNavy]

Re: Relinquishing amateur status

Well by definition a pro automatically can not use the handicap system, any tournament entered must be played scratch. Going to Q school is not the only way to become a professional, qualifing for any tour event and winning money automatically makes you professional, and barred from playing amenturer status. How do get into a pro event, most tour event labeled open (us open, british open, etc..) means anyone can try to qualify. For teaching, simply getting paid does not make you a professional, license makes you a professional, regardless of getting paid or not. Most teaching license require a proof of ability. In other words, your going to be tested, and your going to have to play a few rounds and prove your handicap to get licensed.

[takinitdeep]

Re: Relinquishing amateur status

It's better to use the handicap system but throw in some high scores once in awhile to keep the handicap sandbagged for tournaments.
Even when I was scratch, my handicap showed as 3, 4, 5, or 6.

Well by definition a pro automatically can not use the handicap system, any tournament entered must be played scratch. Going to Q school is not the only way to become a professional, qualifing for any tour event and winning money automatically makes you professional, and barred from playing amenturer status. How do get into a pro event, most tour event labeled open (us open, british open, etc..) means anyone can try to qualify. For teaching, simply getting paid does not make you a professional, license makes you a professional, regardless of getting paid or not. Most teaching license require a proof of ability. In other words, your going to be tested, and your going to have to play a few rounds and prove your handicap to get licensed.

[bulldog2k]

Re: Relinquishing amateur status

Well by definition a pro automatically can not use the handicap system, any tournament entered must be played scratch. Going to Q school is not the only way to become a professional, qualifing for any tour event and winning money automatically makes you professional, and barred from playing amenturer status. How do get into a pro event, most tour event labeled open (us open, british open, etc..) means anyone can try to qualify. For teaching, simply getting paid does not make you a professional, license makes you a professional, regardless of getting paid or not. Most teaching license require a proof of ability. In other words, your going to be tested, and your going to have to play a few rounds and prove your handicap to get licensed.

Hmm, but in the R&A's words, winning prize money bans you from being amateur, but puts you in the no-man's-land where you're not a professional.

I guess the question is, does all tour organisers and others involved in the game share the R&A's definition of professional, and what is this definition anyway? They go to great lengths to define amateur, just not the alternative...

[GoNavy]

Re: Relinquishing amateur status

Hmm, but in the R&A's words, winning prize money bans you from being amateur, but puts you in the no-man's-land where you're not a professional.

I guess the question is, does all tour organisers and others involved in the game share the R&A's definition of professional, and what is this definition anyway? They go to great lengths to define amateur, just not the alternative...

I forget sometimes everyone is not from america..lol..I must admit I am not up-to-date on R&A rules, but 99% of the time the USGA and PGA take their cues from the R&A, so my quess would be that it is very much the same. Amateurs accept money all the time is tournaments here, in the way of gift certificates, merchandise (golf clubs, balls, etc...), but because they are organized as an amaturer event, they will not be classified as a pro for doing such, Amaturers play in pro events, organized and defined as pro events. So long as they do not accept money for it, they too will not change their status. So my guess would be that dependant on how the event is organized, and how you declare yourself, would be the deciding factor.

If accepting money is the only criteria, or making money, then there is are whole bunch of people who are pro now, anybody who ever won a skin, or $5 Nassau, and accepted the cash. So that kinda follows along with the instructor or coach thing. Unless you have the credentials, don't think it counts, so no gray area exists.

[bdbl]

Re: Relinquishing amateur status

I think the point is that amateurs are allowed to win cash equivalents e.g. a new driver or clothing or whatever up to a value of £500 or USD equivalent in any comp.

The problem - and this is the "no-mans-land" referred to by the R&A - comes when they win more than that - say in a pro-am a car for a hole-in-one.

The player has no intention of turning pro - either on a tour or by giving lessons - but if they accept the prize they have forfeited their amateur status.

In effect the R&A advice isn't aimed that those that wish to turn pro but rather those that risk their amateur status inadvertantly.

[BrianW]

Re: Relinquishing amateur status

From the RANDA Rule Book:

Amateur Status
The first definition of an amateur golfer was not made until after the inauguration of the Amateur Championship in 1885. It was then decided that entries could not be accepted from those who had played for prize money in open events, nor from club and ball makers, those who had taught golf for money or caddies. Later additions to this list were course architects and green keepers and those who had played against a professional for money.

The distinction between amateur and professional players is currently more clearly and sensibly defined. The Amateur Status Committee of The R&A defines an amateur as someone who plays the game as a non-remunerative and non-profit-making sport and who does not receive remuneration for teaching golf or for other activities because of golf skill or reputation.

Prizes in amateur events are limited to a value of £500.

Those who accept prizes with higher values than the rules allow - a car for a hole-in-one for instance - enter a no-man's land. They have no official handicap and cannot take part in amateur events, but they do not become professionals.

Yet players may receive expenses to play in competitions, accept golf scholarships and for those who would like to consider a career as a golf professional they are allowed to work in a professional's shop to gain experience before making a final decision and giving up their amateur status, provided they do not give any lessons or infringe the Rules in any other way.

The purpose and spirit of the rules is to keep the amateur game as free as possible from the abuses which may follow from uncontrolled sponsorship and financial incentive and to safeguard the rules of play and handicapping so that golf can be fully enjoyed by all amateur golfers.

[takinitdeep]

Re: Relinquishing amateur status

I prefer to sandbag it.

[bulldog2k]

Re: Relinquishing amateur status

I guess my theoretical question still stands: Could a WGTF teaching coach apply to join a tour - ie; does he or she fit the 'definition' of professional?

[bulldog2k]

Re: Relinquishing amateur status

Bring me the head of Sergio Garcia! - Golf, Sport - Independent.ie

This article seems to provide part of the answer, but more importantly, I found very amusing and well worth a read!