Cookie-Cutter Golf Swings

[BrianW]

Re: Cookie-Cutter Golf Swings

I think some important points are being missed here. Most people that play golf in the world have a high handicap. Most golfers never take a lesson. Most golfers swing out to in and have a reverse pivot. Most golfers are inconsistent with their ball fight. Most golfers want to play better.

Now how do the great unwashed improve their golf?

1) Keep playing as they are and hope that something will change by it's self

2) Talk about their game in the clubhouse and suggest that if it had not been for the five blowup holes they would have made a good score

4) Get very frustrated, throw the clubs in the garage, come back a month later thinking the rest will have done them good

5) keep practising their poor swing at the range so they can get a more consistent poor swing

6) Buy lots of new clubs and only use Pro V 1 X balls

8) Get some professional help

It's a bit of a no-brainer really.

I have used the services of three PGA coaches over the years, they have all had a slightly different style of teaching that reflected their personality but all knew their stuff and were a great help, maybe I have been very fortunate to have met good instructors. I am not so naive to believe that there may not be some coaches that rip people off and give questionable advice, I would think their reputation would go before them though. There will also be the students that cannot be taught or take advice, even when they seek it.

[mariner]

Re: Cookie-Cutter Golf Swings

The frustration in my post comes from the fact that none of the 20 or so different pros I've seen in the 20 years I've been playing know how to stop me swinging out-to-in/over the top, which, considering it's the number one fault amongst all golfers doesn't say much for traditional teaching methods.

[LowPost42]

Re: Cookie-Cutter Golf Swings

Mariner, perhaps it's time to stop looking for a bandaid. IMO, the bulk of golf instruction is bandaid-based.

"Fix my slice"
"Cure my hook"
"Stop my shanks"
"Help my topping"
"Solve my chunking"

The best lesson I've ever had in my entire life came when I went to an instructor and said 'teach me how to properly hit the ball. I don't want a bandaid fix for my ball flight issues. I want to learn how to hit the ball properly, so that I can always hit it properly.'

So the bulk of the lesson actually involved me not moving my arms much at all - in fact, my hands may have never left the front of my legs for the first half hour. But the focus was on good compression and rotation with the body, versus slapping at the ball with the arms and hands. Eventually I had worked up to what felt like half swings, and I was hitting the ball about 10 yards shy of where my full swing went. So I get almost all the distance with half the effort? OK. Everything was straight or a little draw.

Fast forward a bit - the focus of my swing is still body rotation versus active arms. I now have 2 flaws that show up to give me an OTT move - and each time the result is a massive slice (as I keep my clubface square to target very well). Problem one is when I crowd my arms at address - they're too close to my body. They have no choice but to move away, and I come from the outside. Problem two - and this is the one that surfaces most - is hitting at the ball with my arms. When I decide to 'hit' the ball, I stop rotating my body once my shoulders and hips are parallel to the target line (or just a bit past) and 'fling' my arms and hands at the ball - the result is again that the arms move away from the body and I cut across the ball.

However, fully rotating with passive arms results in straight divots, ball on target, and straight ball flight.

Just my $0.02

[bill reed]

Re: Cookie-Cutter Golf Swings

hi lowpost
i did something like that when i went to my pro and asked him to teach me how to play out off sand as i was struggling. was the best two hours of instruction i ever had. he did not really change my swing only showed me the right way to play and then had me do it using my swing and only suggesting ways i could better play the shot. i now feel that sand play is one of the strong parts of my game. I was always going to go back to him and do the same and learn the short game but not done it yet, as i don't want to change the way i swing on my full shots and the short game and sand play i would stand open anyway so what he teach would work with me.
i find the most pro's the short game and recovery shots are one of there strong points and maybe thats why my pro seems to teach that better than starting from scratch and teaching the full swing.
cheers

bill

[captglover]

Re: Cookie-Cutter Golf Swings

I've taught a different sport for 25 years (fencing), and it's a bit like golf in that instructors vary wildly in their ability to teach. A lot of instructors rely on basic cookie-cutter techniques, and I'd say only 10% of the teachers I know are truly gifted and inspirational.

The real secret to great instruction is a teacher who can look at your movement and "see" what needs work to get the desired effect, and know how to construct drills to get you there. I've had several lessons from golf instructors who where just going through the motions. They were of no help, were not paying attention to my swing and I wasted my money.

I agree that good instruction will advance you light years ahead in your progress, but it's a **** shoot to find a teacher who will work with your swing and movement issues and can lead you to improvement. A large portion of golfers don't want to even practice, much less take lessons, and since a good portion of the the ones that will take lessons can't afford Ledbetter or Harmon, it's tough to find good instruction. I've yet to find an instructor who looks at my swing and gets what is going on. I'm a twelve handicapper and what is keeping me from becoming a single digit is inconsistancy from tee to green (especially accuracy off the tee). I've not found the instructor yet who has helped me.

[Martin Levac]

Re: Cookie-Cutter Golf Swings

I've taught a different sport for 25 years (fencing), and it's a bit like golf in that instructors vary wildly in their ability to teach. A lot of instructors rely on basic cookie-cutter techniques, and I'd say only 10% of the teachers I know are truly gifted and inspirational.

The real secret to great instruction is a teacher who can look at your movement and "see" what needs work to get the desired effect, and know how to construct drills to get you there. I've had several lessons from golf instructors who where just going through the motions. They were of no help, were not paying attention to my swing and I wasted my money.

I agree that good instruction will advance you light years ahead in your progress, but it's a **** shoot to find a teacher who will work with your swing and movement issues and can lead you to improvement. A large portion of golfers don't want to even practice, much less take lessons, and since a good portion of the the ones that will take lessons can't afford Ledbetter or Harmon, it's tough to find good instruction. I've yet to find an instructor who looks at my swing and gets what is going on. I'm a twelve handicapper and what is keeping me from becoming a single digit is inconsistancy from tee to green (especially accuracy off the tee). I've not found the instructor yet who has helped me.

You say you've taught sport. I say you already found your instructor. You. Now it's just a matter of finding the appropriate subject matter to study and teach. As with all sports, lessons begin with the rules.

[GregJWillis]

Re: Cookie-Cutter Golf Swings

The real secret to great instruction is a teacher who can look at your movement and "see" what needs work to get the desired effect, and know how to construct drills to get you there.

Can't agree more!

I've had several lessons from golf instructors who where just going through the motions. They were of no help, were not paying attention to my swing and I wasted my money.

I agree it is hard to find one to take the right amount of time to learn your issues. Curious, how many have you gone to? Several could mean 3 or 4. I would suggest interviewing them prior to setting up a paid lesson, talking about your expectations and letting them know that you hope to find someone you could build a relationship over time with. This should seat a good starting point with them where they don't just want to have a few lessons and "off with you" mentality.

[captglover]

Re: Cookie-Cutter Golf Swings

Intersting thought Martin... Several of the best insights I've found was just working through ideas and concepts on the range. The hard part is seeing yourself. I've videoed myself, but it's not always so clear on tape either. And since I don't hit balls 3 times a week new elements creep into swing. I had a maddening month this Summer where I was seriously coming over the top, and had no idea where that came from. I think I can think work through golf theory, but which one is right for me? And again, it's hard when you can't see yourself...

You say you've taught sport. I say you already found your instructor. You. Now it's just a matter of finding the appropriate subject matter to study and teach. As with all sports, lessons begin with the rules.

Greg, Good point. I've been to only 4 instructors. 2 were horrible, (that's the curse's of being familiar with a lot of instruction theories, you can spot cookie cutter bull-pucky, but still can't make it work for youself). One instructor listened but offered nothing more than Ledbetter's top 5 pieces of advice.

The fourth, to be honest, started off great... I had four lessons with a teacher who giving me great stuff for the first two lessons. I improved, was happy to have finally found a teacher who was making a difference with my swing, but by the 3rd and 4th lessons, his instruction kept pushing down a path that was re-building a new swing. I got worse, and even though I practiced quite a few buckets on it, my swing felt completely foreign to me and I was worse than in the beginning. Why I gave up on it was I could see the "new" swing was based on fixes, not a pure swing that fit my movement. Another problem was English was not his primary language, so comminicating my concerns was next to impossible.

I agree it is hard to find one to take the right amount of time to learn your issues. Curious, how many have you gone to? Several could mean 3 or 4. I would suggest interviewing them prior to setting up a paid lesson, talking about your expectations and letting them know that you hope to find someone you could build a relationship over time with. This should seat a good starting point with them where they don't just want to have a few lessons and "off with you" mentality.

[GregJWillis]

Re: Cookie-Cutter Golf Swings

...but by the 3rd and 4th lessons, his instruction kept pushing down a path that was re-building a new swing...

That is the temptation, to see opportunities to make everything technically perfect at the expense of breaking down imperfect repetition.

You do get to at least know what would be a goal for a better technical swing. And ultimately, you are the one who gets to choose if you want to keep your old swing or embark on the next course.

With the 2 lessons you got good results, how well did that translate on the course?

[captglover]

Re: Cookie-Cutter Golf Swings

Greg,

Some of the instructor's advice was, in fact, great. It worked for me out on the course. And I will continue to use his corrections whatever swing I use: relaxed hands, slow my swing down, smooth rhythm, a slight pause at the top. These concepts really sunk in for me for the first time with him. I had a bad habit of really going hard at the ball - leftover habits of my teenage years... These corrections had the effect of better ball contact out on the course (as long as I remembered to do them).

The problems came from correcting my over the top move with setting my shoulders extremely closed at address while widening my stance. I know I get much better timing on my weight transfer with a narrow stance, and it also lessens the effect of my early hip turn (which is where I think my OTT move comes from). After awhile I felt like I was playing croque between my legs with that set up . And the last lesson he suggested an even more closed set up than before. It wasn't pretty.

Funny though, about this time I picked up Jim McLean's "Plain Truth" book, and armed with video of myself, I deduced that I was using a 2-plane swing. Much of the actual swing advice the instructor was telling me was, according to Jim's teachings, for a 1-plane swing. Given that I am 51 years old, and my back doesn't bend deeply from the waist without strain (the 1P swing), I thought I had found my "Technique"!

After 5 weeks of working every technique I could get my hands on for the 2P swing, my shots were just as inconsistant as ever. I never followed up with lessons from someone who understood Jim's theories, so that was my half hearted effort... But I was so frustrated I decided maybe the 2P approach was not for me...

3 range sessions ago I decided to start again and strip down my swing, keeping what worked, and build the other fundamentals off of those things. I used the narrower stance, returned to a flatter plane on backswing, and then incorporated something I remembered from my early school playing days (amazing how I don't remember where I last had dinner out, but seem to remember a very strong grip for when I was 17...).

The stronger left hand choice was based on an observation: if there was any tension in my grip at all, half the time I would leave my clubface open at impact. The "natural" position of my left hand at impact seemed to want to be very strong. I started getting consistant draws from my irons (which is how I hit it in school - the 2P swing created an inconsistant fade/slice).

I then tucking in my right elbow at address (which I'm guessing strengthens my right hand too) and that seemed to cure my OTT without thinking about it! Not sure this is the answer, but at least with my irons I have found consistancy. I've just started working this, so we'll see how it goes. All new approaches seem to have initial success. I've yet to make it out on the course yet with the new approach.

This game nevers gets boring!

[Martin Levac]

Re: Cookie-Cutter Golf Swings

Intersting thought Martin... Several of the best insights I've found was just working through ideas and concepts on the range. The hard part is seeing yourself. I've videoed myself, but it's not always so clear on tape either. And since I don't hit balls 3 times a week new elements creep into swing. I had a maddening month this Summer where I was seriously coming over the top, and had no idea where that came from. I think I can think work through golf theory, but which one is right for me? And again, it's hard when you can't see yourself...

The ball doesn't lie.

The difficult part of my practice sessions was when I was fighting the "don'ts". Don't bend the elbow, don't cup the wrist, don't slide the hips, don't stand too straight, don't grip the club so hard, don't reverse pivot. Etc. Since I'm not supposed to do the don'ts, I don't do them. Since I don't do them, I don't know what they produce or how they feel. I don't learn. I don't progress. But now, I do whatever it takes to send the ball to my target no matter how it feels or how it looks. And the ball flies.

I have progressed because I have done all the don'ts I could think of just to see. Just to learn. No matter what I did I must have done the right thing if the ball is going where I aimed. No matter how I look like I must look good because the ball is going where I aimed. Even if I did all the don'ts I can think of.

It is through doing the don'ts that I have found what must be done and what can be ignored. For instance, these three specific techniques are contradictory for most of us: Bring the club to parallel; maintain the angle between the left arm and the club; don't bend the left elbow. I'm not a contortionist, I can't do all that at the same time. So I had to choose which one to do. So I did them all one at a time by temporarily ignoring the other two. I found that what helped most is the angle between the left arm and the club. The other two are OK if I could do them but I can't and they don't make much of a difference anyway.


The camera lies.

When I look at video clips now, I look at intentions. Intentions are obvious on video but technique is difficult to see. I look at intentions and from those I deduce what the player is doing or trying to do. For instance, we know when a player is trying to lift the ball. We know what he's trying to do to achieve his goal. We know how to correct this. Not with some cryptic technique, but by changing his intention. "Strike the ball downward". Then by teaching him why this will send the ball high. "Because of the loft of the club".

His first intention was "Send ball high". His first method was "Hit ball upward". It works for throwing a ball but not for striking a ball with a lofted club.

The point I'm trying to make here is that video is useful but only for those who know what to do with it. It's a big step from interpreting the images to formulating a method to correct the intentions shown on the screen. Anybody can see what the guy is doing but few can tell him how to solve his problem. If you have a hard time figuring it all out, stick with analyzing the ball flight when you strike it. It will tell you what you're doing with more accuracy than any video clip.


As an aside, I noticed something about people that film themselves and use only that information as their basis for progress. They stop progressing altogether. Perhaps because they're stuck on some small detail or they're trying to fit themselves to the images they see. Perhaps because they never look at what the ball is doing and have no real basis for comparison. Then wonder why the ball does what it does. It's a thought.

[captglover]

Re: Cookie-Cutter Golf Swings

Very interesting thoughts, Martin.

[jamesh]

Re: Cookie-Cutter Golf Swings

A large portion of golfers don't want to even practice, much less take lessons, and since a good portion of the the ones that will take lessons can't afford Ledbetter or Harmon, it's tough to find good instruction. I've yet to find an instructor who looks at my swing and gets what is going on. I'm a twelve handicapper and what is keeping me from becoming a single digit is inconsistancy from tee to green (especially accuracy off the tee). I've not found the instructor yet who has helped me.[/quote]

And so the search continues... I've said it before here, and someone recently posted, that the Leadbetter interactive DVD series is now going for about $60. This series has helped me immensely. I highly recommend it. I used the diagnostics with the program, and it correctly diagnose my swing faults, and I was able to correct them. A downside to the program, which I recently discovered, is once you upload your video, and analyze it, you cannot save your analysis. This features has been disabled on purpose, so you'll send your video to the Leadbetter Academy for analysis and a fee. I think there's a workaround for this, I'm looking at a video capture card, or other programs to capture what is on the screen.

Shawn Clement, an instructor from Canada, who can be found on YouTube -- has a lot of worthwhile videos that have also help me.

James H.

[captglover]

Re: Cookie-Cutter Golf Swings

James, Do you know if the Ledbetter DVDs work on a Mac as well as PC?

Ledbetter seems to have a carefully thought out system, let's face it, nobody has a more extensive teaching program in golf. He is the model - at least from a marketing and promotion stand point. He's helped some really good golfers over the years. I like the fact that he seems sincere and wants to help in his videos. Not just sell things. His books and the few older DVDs I've seen have had solid advice in them, but his model swing is not my swing. Perhaps a more thorough presentation like the DVD series would bee more useful.

A good instructor can help you with your specific issues, and since my swing is not the "classic swing" I wonder whether any book or DVD is going to "be the answer"...

It's nice to see the DVDs have gone down in price. Definately kept me from buying before.

[jamesh]

Re: Cookie-Cutter Golf Swings

[quote=captglover;10548561]James, Do you know if the Ledbetter DVDs work on a Mac as well as PC?

Unfortunately, they will only work on a PC. I am unsure if this will change down the road. I have many Golf DVD's Leadbetter, Harmon and others; this new series from Leadbetter is in a leauge of its own.

jamesh