Back- Swing

[Timothy Slaught]

Hello All:

I wanted to get some feedback concerning the backswing. I believe that I have gotten away from a swinging motion in my backswing and have become too position oriented. I have not been swinging the club to the top but more or less forcing it there.

I got thinking about this issue after reading some info on a method called "Gravity Golf" developed by instructor David Lee. The premise of his teaching the backswing has to do with a motion of swinging the club (he calls it heaving) by using a dynamic motion to get the club to the top. When I first read about this it did not make much sense but as I continued to research I seemed to get the notion of what he was refering to. His idea is to use the body pivot with the shoulder turn to get the club to the top not really utilizing the arms. The arms are lifted simply by the turning of the torso and shoulders. The wrist cock is achieved by this pivoting action as well. This requires a smooth but somewhat energetic move away from the ball.You really just need to stay loose with the arms and wrists and let them follow the lead of the torso and shoulder action. To me, I am just letting the arms wrists and club go along for the ride to the top.

As, I experimented at the range it was clear that this was a truly swinging motion back wich is easily complemented by the swinging motion down. I had gotten into a habit of putting the club at the top versus swinging it there. I feel much more syncronized in my overall motion of the golf swing using this swinging (not placing) approach. Clubhead lag has improved dramatically.

I bring this up because most instruction for the backswing focuses on being in certain positions but not how to do this in a fluid manner. Has anyone else fallen victim to being somewhat deliberate with the backswing instead of actually making it swing.

Thanks.
Tim S.

[BrianW]

Re: Back- Swing

Hi Tim,

I saw an article recently where it suggested that from address the club was hovered slightly above the ball, swung a foot or so forward then from there all the way back up to the top in an unrestricted sweeping movement.

The premise was that this created a better tempo and rhythm while helping to stay balanced into the downswing. I will give it a try.

[Neil18]

Re: Back- Swing

Morning Timothy,

Can't say that I've found much on Gravity Golf to be able to give a fully educated debate on this, but here's what I think (please bear in mind I haven't got the benefit of having read any of the science behind gravity golf):

I am of the opinion that the "swing" part of the golfing action is more to do with the downswing than the backswing.

If I am to start looking at the entire motion of swinging something, then a force must be applied in the first place to start the swing.

In terms of swinging something in the most basic of forms I picture a childs swing suspended from a thick tree branch. If we sit a child on the swing, invariably the child will ask to be moved. So we grab the chair and move it to the top of an arc. When we let go, the swinging motion starts. We didn't swing the child to the top of the arc. We put her there. The "swing" bit is the uninterrupted motion to and fro of the weight the child has added to the rope.

(Whilst writing this I appreciate that the child could move the swing herself by rocking with her body weight, but firstly that doesn't support my point of view and secondly I think we would all agree that if we were to stand over a golf ball swinging the club gradually backwards and forwards until we'd built enough motion to strike it far, golf would be a very very very long and arduous campaign!)

In terms of the golf swing, in my eyes, in order to truly swing the club to the top we would need to start the clubhead ahead of the ball (the same as taking the child on the swing to the top). To be able to truly swing the club back behind the ball would first require the stored energy of starting the club forwards of the ball.

When we address the ball there is no swinging energy present. We must make it move to the top. I would add that in my interpretation, the swinging motion may actually start just before the transition from the top. There must come a time in the backswing when we start to reverse the motion. This motion, in my view is "allowed" by the golfer rather than forcing the club back the other way. To me, this is when the swinging starts. The rest is a matter of coordinating your body movements with the downward swinging of the club in order to:

1. not inerrupt the swinging motion we have created and
2. add speed to it without destroying the building momentum

These two reasons, for me, are why I prefer the knowledge of what positions I'm trying to hit to allow my club to be unimpeded around me, and to speed it up/allow it to speed up without manipulating it incorrectly. And in terms of my backswing, I have to know how (muscularly) to get the club up there correctly because I'm moving it up there, not swinging it.

If memory serves, I have tried getting the club swinging freely to the top, but it was too loose to provide any consistency for me.

Maybe you could expand a little on Gravity Golf and how it has helped you?

[Timothy Slaught]

Re: Back- Swing

Hello:

Thanks for the replies gentlemen.

Neil, you have described exactly what I am trying to figure out here. How do you move from a static position at set-up into a swinging motion?Obviously you have found that positioning the club to the top versus swinging is more in your minds eye as far as your motion. I've seen you swing and this obviously works for you. It is a very tidy swing indeed.

If you look at many top players you will see that they use a trigger to achieve the dynamic motion from set-up into their takeaway. By the way I now use the term "swing-away" as opposed to take-away to help visualize a more fluid motion. You can see slight variations of a trigger but they all help get the swing in motion and as I really observed closely the backswing "swingers" that come to mind are Sam Snead, Phil Mickelson Vijay Singh. You can really see them use the trigger of the legs or in Sneads case the hips to start the pivot into a definite swinging motion. Bobby Jones was definitely a backswinger. I know in the case of Jones and Snead I'm going back a ways but Mickelson and Singh are still using that swinging motion in todays modern game.

Gravity Golf has been endorsed by such players as Jack Nicklaus and it is one of many "methods" out there. Since there is not "one way" to play golf and never will be, Gravity Golf principles may make sense to some and not to others. The Gravity philosophy is not about positions but more along the lines of motion and how to use the principle of gravity to it's fullest. Whereas many instructors promote a slow deliberate take-away, Gravity Golf says it need to be more dynamic and include enough enertia to get the club to the top without using the arms. This is acomplished by the larger muscles of the legs torso and shoulders.

The benefits I have gained by getting more swing into the backswing are:

1) Staying looser in my muscle tension level. I have always fought a tendency to tighten up and in order be able to swing to the top all of my muscles must remain supple to do so.

2) An improved transition since I am not going from a placement oriented motion in the backswing to a swinging motion on the downswing. It is more fluid and more of a cohesive feel throughout the entire swing. This improved transition has helped me achieve lag naturaly.

3) I am achieving much more turn from my shoulders and the club feels much lighter as I am using the motion of larger muscles to get the club moving versus my arms. I finally get the feel of not being an arm oriented golfer. I can really feel every part of my body involved in the swing. I try to balance the energy used to swing through the ball from head to toe.

Thanks,
Tim S

[Neil18]

Re: Back- Swing

Nice one Tim.

I can definately relate to the feelings you're describing. When swinging the club up to the top there's a feeling of weightlessness about the club and it's very free-flowing.

Funny you should mention Snead. My instructor uses "old-time" golfing stars as his models for consistency. I think there's more funky unnecessary things going on in modern swings than in yester-year so I'd rather use the old timers as a guide.

I love Sneads swing. I guess maybe because I'm currently learning the Snead-esque backswing so it feels more mechanical. I tend to have to "tell" my muscles to do it before I can get to the stage of not thinking about it. I've had so many bad habits in the past they creep in like weeds. It's coming gradually. Perhaps my coach will integrate a trigger into my swing in future. Watch this space!

The head to toe feeling is exactly what I'm after. When I watch clips of Snead he seemed to use the ground very well, turning from his feet and knees upward rather than being top half and arms oriented, as you so accurately put it. Consequently he can get his entire body into the shot and WHAMMO! it's gone in a flash!

Bring it on. Sounds like we're going to the same place via two different routes. Hope to see you there!

[Timothy Slaught]

Re: Back- Swing

Neil:

Two problems have plagued me in recent years. First is the emphasis on hitting the ball as far as possible with the driver and this has spread to the rest of my bag as well. "Can I hit the driver 300 yards & the sand wedge 120 yards?". This mentality is brought about by the emphasis of length in todays game as well as my out of touch ego.

Still, in the back of my mind, I know that accuracy is the only true measure of golfing profeciency. I am trying to surrender my quest to hit it big and put the emphasis on accuracy.

I am self taught, literally never having a formal lesson and I know this is a round a bout way to achieve my goals but I have always been hard headed. I have good natural hand to eye coordination but in golf this is clearly not enough to exceed.

My latest "experiment" with the golf swing is my most exciting to date because I am simply trying to achieve a fluid balanced swing going at it at 75% speed versus my usual 110%. Surprisingly or not, my shots are traveling better at 75%...go figure. This swing key has clearly been the most consistent in recent years. Several weeks of good ballstriking.

My guess is you swing the club along the lines of what I am seeking but do it without concious effort. To achieve the weightless feel it does require that balance of all moving parts to maximize distance and accuracy.

At the range, I have commited to hitting no more than one driver shot to every 7 short or mid irons. My tendency was to hit 30 or more drives in consesion while practicing, trying to hit each one longer than the last. Although I have gotten in grooves where I could hit it consistently, eventually my swing would fall apart from this practice.

I am commited to controlling my urge to kill it and see where this new mind set leads me. I think I'm on the right track.

Thanks again for the feedback.
Tim S.

[Martin Levac]

Re: Back- Swing

"I try to hit the ball as far as I can. I end up sending it farther and farther away from the target."

There's a lesson.