Very Compact Backswing - Any Downside?

[Macca_NZ]

Hi

I have one small question for everyone.

I am a player who has had ups and down with my swing over the last 2 years since starting golf.

Reading hogans book and a few others and lots of range work has helped me develop a swing which is a good base but still very inconsistent.

Like lots of us I try new thing which work great for a while then seem to not work anymore etc etc

Anyway I have always had no problem with distance. Given my handicap of approx 20 my issue in improving is absolutely not distance but consistency.

After having a period of swing problems I have started using a very compact (short) backswing but really focusing on using my legs, hips, sholders in the swing.

The result has been fantastic. I am hitting the ball MUCH straighter and with no real loss of distance. Hitting the 8 Iron 140-145 yards.

It feels like my backswing is extremely short now but i guess isn't impacting me.

In terms of how short I would say arms getting to parellel to ground. This is obviosuly with full wrist cock and pretty good sholder turn.


Does anyone see any down side to trying to progress with this very compact swing style?



Also I have found that it is least effective with my driver?? Which is strange becasue my 3 wood has also benefited from the new compact swing.

I think driver is likely a set up issue. Should you hands bet set slightly ahead of the ball for a driver at address? Given the ballis more off front foot anyway?

Any comments appreciated.

[BrianW]

Re: Very Compact Backswing - Any Downside?

Hi

I have one small question for everyone.

I am a player who has had ups and down with my swing over the last 2 years since starting golf.

Reading hogans book and a few others and lots of range work has helped me develop a swing which is a good base but still very inconsistent.

Like lots of us I try new thing which work great for a while then seem to not work anymore etc etc

Anyway I have always had no problem with distance. Given my handicap of approx 20 my issue in improving is absolutely not distance but consistency.

After having a period of swing problems I have started using a very compact (short) backswing but really focusing on using my legs, hips, shoulders in the swing.

The result has been fantastic. I am hitting the ball MUCH straighter and with no real loss of distance. Hitting the 8 Iron 140-145 yards.

It feels like my backswing is extremely short now but i guess isn't impacting me.

In terms of how short I would say arms getting to parallel to ground. This is obviosuly with full wrist cock and pretty good sholder turn.


Does anyone see any down side to trying to progress with this very compact swing style?



Also I have found that it is least effective with my driver?? Which is strange becasue my 3 wood has also benefited from the new compact swing.

I think driver is likely a set up issue. Should you hands bet set slightly ahead of the ball for a driver at address? Given the ballis more off front foot anyway?

Any comments appreciated.

Your hands should be set level with the clubface using a driver, all other clubs will be ahead by the amount designed into the shaft lean.

I would suggest that you look at your spine angle and shoulder turn. Ensure you maintain the same spine angle set at address throughout the swing and that your shoulders are rotating back and through around that spine angle. Any lifting or swaying during the back and down swing will create inconsistencies.

[Neil18]

Re: Very Compact Backswing - Any Downside?

If you're worried about a compact backswing with a rotational style of swing, just look at videos of Ben Hogan on Youtube:

His hands hardly get above the line of his shoulders even with a wood.

You're on the right track, I'd say.

[Avid Golfer]

Re: Very Compact Backswing - Any Downside?

Historically as pros have evolved in their games, and gone on to have have more successful careers they have compacted their backswings. A number of tour pros (including Greg Norman, Nick Faldo, Nick Price, Phil Mickelson, and Davis Love III) all had upright swings that went past parallel (ala John Daly), and each of them made changes to a more compact backswing.

As for the driver setup position. Below is a picture of Greg Norman at setup / address. Greg Norman is considered by many (including me ) to have been one of the best (if not the best) driver(s) of the golf ball in recent history. As you can see his hands are positioned over the clubhead/ball, and not in front of it.

[Leverpowergolfer]

Re: Very Compact Backswing - Any Downside?

Bubba Watson has proven you don't need a large backswing, his is one of if the longest consistent driver on the tour, of course he does need to work on his short game. He has proven, along with science, that fast rotating forearms accounts for the majority of clubhead speed.

[Martin Levac]

Re: Very Compact Backswing - Any Downside?

Bubba Watson has proven you don't need a large backswing, his is one of if the longest consistent driver on the tour, of course he does need to work on his short game. He has proven, along with science, that fast rotating forearms accounts for the majority of clubhead speed.

Bubba does an extremely long backswing, he just doesn't cock the wrist one bit. And where do we find this proof you speak of?

[Leverpowergolfer]

Re: Very Compact Backswing - Any Downside?

What proof is it you are asking for, and there is no way he could hit the ball over 300 yards without cocking his wrists. That is referring to Bubba.

I did make a mistake, I was referring to Aaron Baddeley's take back.

[Leverpowergolfer]

Re: Very Compact Backswing - Any Downside?

Forearm Rotation is an Absolute Must for Maximum Clubhead Speed and Accuracy

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ben Hogan: Five Easy Lessons - Forward

I rolled the face of the club open away from the ball. Coming down, the face was moving so fast, I couldn't turn it over and hook. I was rotating the club like a baseball bat, and the faster I could rotate it, the more distance I got. Training myself, I would roll the face as fast as far as I could, with this technique, I could hit the ball straight and farther. As far as power goes, I wish I had three right hands.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I must impress the need to rotate your forearms during the golf stroke. The majority of clubhead speed comes from forearm rotation. During the backstroke, you need to rotate your forearms. You can start forearm rotation immediately or you can start forearm rotation at waist high in the backstroke.


That was from Hogan, you may not realize it but every swing is a rotation of the forearms. Do your swing in slow motion, (if right handed) on backswing right palm faces up, on finish right palm faces down, that is a rotation of forearms, the faster they rotate, the more clubhead speed.
I wish I new how to attach pictures to show you.

[Martin Levac]

Re: Very Compact Backswing - Any Downside?

I made a mistake too. I confused Bubba with J.B. It's JB that has this stunted backswing yet can generate tremendous speed.


It's not the length of the backswing that determines impact speed. It's arc width and arc length on the downswing. A wider arc is also longer. Thus, this is one reason JB can produce tremendous speed even with this stunted backswing.

[kbp]

Re: Very Compact Backswing - Any Downside?

Forearm rotation on the down swing is a reaction to the clubhead catching up to and passing the body rotation and necessary to allow full release of clubhead speed. It is a reaction to clubhead speed, not a muscular "source" of speed. Purposely applying additional rolling force to this movement is not going to significantly increase clubhead speed. This is evidenced by players that frequently "hold off" forearm rotation to maintain the club loft on a controlled iron. They lose a relatively small amount of clubhead speed, maybe 10 percent. This is because holding off forearm rotation BLOCKS the full release of speed, not because they failed to apply force from the forearms.

To be clear, faster forearm rotation is produced by faster clubhead speed, not the other way around.

[Leverpowergolfer]

Re: Very Compact Backswing - Any Downside?

Really, so the club swings itself? Just pull it back and start it down and the club takes over, you got to be kidding! You ever hear of type II fast twitch muscles? Look it up. The faster you rotate your wrists, the faster club head speed. Example: Take a baseball bat and swing it without rolling your wrists, you are left with an arm swing with to power. The reason I use a bat is because there is no flex in a bat, you have to roll your wrist to create speed and power, just as a golf club.

[bruin]

Re: Very Compact Backswing - Any Downside?

if you only have trouble with the driver , then don't use it , don't even put it in your bag!
if you want consistency , and like me you are a high capper , tee off with a 3 wood, it will get you in play , without a great loss of distance . try it, you might be surprised.

[Neil18]

Re: Very Compact Backswing - Any Downside?

Forearm Rotation is an Absolute Must for Maximum Clubhead Speed and Accuracy

I don't agree.

"I must impress the need to rotate your forearms during the golf stroke. The majority of clubhead speed comes from forearm rotation. During the backstroke, you need to rotate your forearms. You can start forearm rotation immediately or you can start forearm rotation at waist high in the backstroke".

Hogan frequently spoke of things he felt he did in his swing. Quite often, it wasn't what he was doing at all. Most notably his "spin the hips to the left at the start of the downswing" is a prime example of him not doing what he said he did. The above quotation is most likely a similar misconception.

That was from Hogan, you may not realize it but every swing is a rotation of the forearms.

No it's not. This isn't me not realising it. This is me looking at what's happening in Hogan's swing, and his forearms hardly rotate at all.

Do your swing in slow motion, (if right handed) on backswing right palm faces up, on finish right palm faces down, that is a rotation of forearms, the faster they rotate, the more clubhead speed.

At the top of the backswing my right palm faces up(ish) because I hinge my wrist back toward my forearm. If I rotated my forearms on my backswing I'd be pointing the club directly behind me. At the end of my swing my right palm faces behind me next to my head. If someone's seen anyones right palm facing the ground at the end of their swing then they've been watching tennis. Purposeful rotation of the forearms is, I would say, one of the chief killers of swing plane in the backswing and should be avoided as it also leads to the position that golfers think is "not completing the backswing". It's the extremely laid off look that is caused by forearm rotation that destroys so many players swing plane and chances of making a good stroke through the ball.

Timing the arm swing with the body rotation along with a decent amount (i.e.not too much) of clubhead lag produces controllable distance and accuracy.

Looking at Hogan's swing it can be clearly seen that, in relation to his turning torso, his arms maintain the same relationship with his turn in that the radius of each forearm stays closest to his chest. If there were any discernable amount of forearm rotation (by discernable I mean a consciously self-taught and very active move, or something a player may have to think about doing whilst learning) in his backswing, the radius and ulna in his right arm would both be facing his chest. They're not. It is physically impossible to rotate your right forearm in the backswing and not have the club point behind you (laid off). There is a tiny amount of positional change in Hogan's forearms as a reaction to his wrist cock, but it's the wrist cock that does it, not him turning his forearms.

If anyone can rotate their forearm but keep their palm pointing in the same direction as it was, then they need to join a circus act or realise that they are, in fact, an android.

Hogan has a fair amount of right hand release well after the ball has gone (i.e. once the club is moving past his waist height) in his follow through, but through impact and the first part of his release there is hardly any, if any at all, rotation of Hogans forearms.

At no point do his forearms rotate independantly of his only truly rotating part of his body; his trunk. The relationship he keeps between his arms and torso is one of the main reasons he was so accurate.

The baseball bat analogy is an interesting one. Look again:

The batter has started prepared to hit, so he has no backswing in this clip. However, if you watch his forearms coming into frame, right up to the point of impact and beyond, there is no forearm rotation. He turns his body and "punches" through the ball. The full release and turn of his arms happens well after the ball has gone and is a function of holding the bat with one hand lower than the other, turning his body through the hit and the speed at which the head of the bat is propelled forwards. Much like Mr Hogans golf swing.

Here's a different angle:

and just for laughs, how cool is this??!!:

[Leverpowergolfer]

Re: Very Compact Backswing - Any Downside?

If you look at the third (broken bat) you see his bat went from pointing back to pointing across the plate, he moved his wrist from his shoulders to infront of his body, while rotating and extending his forearms to get the bat around.

The other two utube examples were weak. One was a swing to the opposite field (like a weak fade in golf where you don't rotate through the ball), and the other was an inconclusive swing. Based on what it showed it was hard to tell if he was late or early in the swing, either way, he had no power in that swing.

If your palm is facing upish at take back, and then towards your target on impact, how did the palm change direction, by rotating the arms.




this is Couples, see how the arms rotate through the swing.
And tiger

[Neil18]

Re: Very Compact Backswing - Any Downside?

If your palm is facing upish at take back, and then towards your target on impact, how did the palm change direction....

It didn't. I turned my body. My hands and forearms don't do anything rotationally until full release after the ball has gone.

Both pictures you have shown of Tiger (who has admitted battling flipping at the ball with his hands and arms) and Couples show full release of the club well after impact. They haven't rotated their arms through impact for the purpose of achieving impact. They're hanging on to the club with one hand lower than the other so the speed they have created in the downswing has crossed their hands over in the follow through.

Attempting to square the cluface for impact by rolling your arms is inconsistent. It need not be done for power, nor accuracy.