Release Thoughts

[Avid Golfer]

Re: Release Thoughts

A good golf swing takes less than two seconds to happen. I believe that is too short a time for someone to try to think about, and successfully execute a change in motion after the transition (especially with any consistency and control). Biomechanical and kinesthetic studies have suggested that the arms and wrists do not rotate over one another in the through swing like many people think they do. Trying to cause a release (or hold off a release) in such a short span of time as the golf swing with physics and gravity playing a part is a futile effort in my view.

I believe if you setup and swing with good posture, good balance, and a good grip the release will happen naturally for you.

If you are looking for feel related drills having to do with the release here are a few:


Steve Elkington (who is in contention in this weeks Bob Hope) likes to think of the thumbs swinging into a thumbs up position half way in the back swing and half way in the through swing to get the feel of how his arms move in the swing.

A number of other pros like to split their hands a couple of inches apart on the grip and then making swings to promote a feel for how they believe the arms move in the swing.

Nick Faldo liked the image and feeling of separating his right hand from his right shoulder (which stayed in place) starting down (straighting his right arm on the downswing).

If you maintain your posture and have allowed room for your arms to swing down and through freely (instead of becoming crouched and cramped which can block your arms) you have a good chance of releasing successfully. (see the Nick Faldo image below)

If you have a good grip, posture, balance, and your upper left arm (for right handed golfers) has remained close to your chest at impact you should be able to obtain a sound release. If your upper left arm separates from your chest near impact then your arm will not release naturally with your body, and your arm could potentially rotate in a counter clockwise direction which could result in you leaving your club face open.

Greg Norman liked to think of his left arm hugging his chest at and after impact which he felt helped him to keep his clubhead square, his arms swinging into a low round finish, and stopped him from hitting missed shots out to the right (and whacking his straw hat off the back of his head ).

[Martin Levac]

Re: Release Thoughts

A good golf swing takes less than two seconds to happen. I believe that is too short a time for someone to try to think about, and successfully execute a change in motion after the transition (especially with any consistency and control). Biomechanical and kinesthetic studies have suggested that the arms and wrists do not rotate over one another in the through swing like many people think they do. Trying to cause a release (or hold off a release) in such a short span of time as the golf swing with physics and gravity playing a part is a futile effort in my view.

I believe if you setup and swing with good posture, good balance, and a good grip the release will happen naturally for you.

So few words yet so many myths.

The swing is too quick so we shouldn't try to control it. Instead we should rely on luck. Hang on and enjoy the ride. That's the extent of your advice.


Release will happen no matter how good or bad we set up.

The release is not the squaring of the clubface. This can be done independently from the release. The release is when the club releases from its cocked position at the top of the backswing or transition if you prefer. We can rely on the release to square the clubface but then we'd have to be even more precise in the timing of the release otherwise we hit the ball everywhere. We can also square the clubface independently from the release so we don't have to worry about a badly timed release and still strike the ball well and send it where we aimed.

Between a properly timed release and a square clubface at impact, the square cluface at impact is much more fruitful because it has the greatest effect on the ball.

Anyway I look at it, I should control the club as best I can for best result. I should control the club as best I can to time the release as precisely as possible if I rely on the release to square the clubface. I should also control the club as best I can to square the clubface independently from the release.

[BrianW]

Re: Release Thoughts

A good golf swing takes less than two seconds to happen. I believe that is too short a time for someone to try to think about, and successfully execute a change in motion after the transition (especially with any consistency and control). Biomechanical and kinesthetic studies have suggested that the arms and wrists do not rotate over one another in the through swing like many people think they do. Trying to cause a release (or hold off a release) in such a short span of time as the golf swing with physics and gravity playing a part is a futile effort in my view.

I think you are wrong, it is possible to make a wide range of manipulations during the golf swing. It is easy to keep the face open, close it early, make a swing with no release at all etc.

Good ball strikers generate a late hit as they move the clubface from open to closed through impact, poorer ball strikers don't. It take a conscious effort while practicing to master this move and how would you be able to do this without forearm and wrist rotation? Forearm rotation is also absolutely necessary to keep the clubface on plane.

Of course you are welcome to your views, I just do not agree with them, I would be interested in you producing the actual Bio-mechanical and kinesthetic evidence that you quote.

[Avid Golfer]

Re: Release Thoughts

The swing is too quick so we shouldn't try to control it. Instead we should rely on luck. Hang on and enjoy the ride. That's the extent of your advice.

I never mentioned anything about luck. If you read my post you would see that I stated that a solid address position (fundamentals of: grip, posture, balance, ball position, and alignment at setup), and a sound transition move determine how you arrive at impact. Trying to flip or maneuver your wrists or hands isn't going to help achieve consistency in the swing.

[Martin Levac]

Re: Release Thoughts

I never mentioned anything about luck. If you read my post you would see that I stated that a solid address position (fundamentals of: grip, posture, balance, ball position, and alignment at setup), and a sound transition move determine how you arrive at impact. Trying to flip or maneuver your wrists or hands isn't going to help achieve consistency in the swing.

Practice is the mother of all skills. With study and practice we develop, improve and maintain skill. Practice makes perfect. Technique is derived from practice. Only through extensive practice do we achieve any level of consistency.

Trying to flip or maneuver the wrists or hands is precisely what we must do to control the club. We can't avoid this fact especially since the only thing we can control the club with is our hands. When we try to avoid this, we end up letting the club control us and the ball goes wherever it wants, not where we aim it. We rely on luck. So yes, you mentioned something about luck just not in so many words.

Again, when we rely on the release to square the clubface we must be even more precise in the synchronization of this release if we want to strike the ball well and send it where we aim. Otherwise it will go mostly anywhere we don't aim. This is even more reason to control the club as best we can with the only things touching the club at any time during the entire motion: Our hands. Yet you advise not to use the hands.

So what if one thing is a little off? It surely matters when you rely on everything to be just right in order to strike the ball well. But when we rely on our hands to control the club, it doesn't matter that much if we're off on alignment or posture or whatever, we're still going to strike the ball well and send it where we aim. Yet you advise not to use the hands.

The alternative is that we don't use our hands. The very concept is absurd. Yet that is precisely what you advise.

[Avid Golfer]

Re: Release Thoughts

Good ball strikers generate a late hit as they move the clubface from open to closed through impact, poorer ball strikers don't. It take a conscious effort while practicing to master this move and how would you be able to do this without forearm and wrist rotation? Forearm rotation is also absolutely necessary to keep the clubface on plane.

A late hit (as you call it) comes from the angle the club approaches. It is not caused from conscious rotating the arms or wrists. Look at the pictures of Immelman and Faldo they are not flipping their wrists or rotating their forearms at impact or beyond. Their forearms arms at impact and just past it are square to their bodies and the clubface.

Pros (Greg Norman, Ernie Els, Annika Sorenstam to name three) have all been asked if they think about conscious rotation of their forearms or trying to force their wrists to stay cocked, and every time they say an emphatic no.

Of course you are welcome to your views, I just do not agree with them, I would be interested in you producing the actual Bio-mechanical and kinesthetic evidence that you quote.

Read page 16, 39-40, 189 of Swing like a Pro (by Ralph Mann who has a PH D. in biomechanics), in Alastair Cochran and John Stobbs Search for the Perfect Swing they showed that pro golfers (with detectors attached to them) were unable to control their forearms and wrist after the downswing was in progress. The scientific principles and tests discussed in The Physics of Golf, Newton on the Tee, See and Feel the Inside Move the Outside (page 38, 136-138 for example).
According to studies done by Ralph Mann, Jim Suttie, and as reported by Michael Hebron on page 136 of his book "Reseach showed any attempt to control impact is futile, arms and wrists are not strong enough to control the speeding clubhead."

Those are just a few of the many studies that have been done on the subject. There is a ton of scientific evidence (including studies with electrodes attached to pro golfers) to support the hypothesis that the arms and wrists can not and should not be (or attempted to be) controlled. If you make an effort to look for and read those studies you'll find there are many of them, and they are well supported by other studies.

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/2...ndfaldoqm5.jpg

[Martin Levac]

Re: Release Thoughts

Don't use your hands because studies say so. What are we supposed to do with our hands then, put them together and pray? When a study contradicts personal experience, should we also disregard our personal experience in favor of this new study? With all due respect, Avid Golfer, I give little weight to research when the price of this research is the outright dismissal of my own reality. Especially when this reality already works as intended.

[Martin Levac]

Re: Release Thoughts

Pros (Greg Norman, Ernie Els, Annika Sorenstam to name three) have all been asked if they think about conscious rotation of their forearms or trying to force their wrists to stay cocked, and every time they say an emphatic no.

Trying to force the club to stay cocked is a myth. The action is to pull on the club to prevent it from releasing early. I haven't heard anybody do it successfully nor do I advise to do it. I tried it and found it impossible. This action is confused with pushing the club to maintain it in position. It is confusing because "keep the club cocked as long as possible" is ambiguous. Because the club will collapse as we swing it if we don't push it.

A multitude of pros collapse the club. Few actually push on the club to prevent it from collapsing on the downswing. When one does, it's clearly obvious because the club follows a distinct arc around the player before it releases from its position. Otherwise, the clubhead moves closer to the player's head as it comes down and then violently accelerates as it releases from its position.

The collapse comes from the belief that there is a benefit to be had from retaining the club cocked for as long as possible. The all powerful late hit. Supposedly, there is a tremendous amount of power to be gained from a late hit regardless of everything that goes on before it as long as it leads to the late hit. The later the hit, the more power to be gained. Perhaps this belief comes from the fact that the club does accelerate rather violently when one collapses the club intentionally to retain it in position for as long as possible. It doesn't actually increase the amount of available power because it's the same person swinging the club. It does, however, increase the difference in force one must control in a shorter amount of time. So in effect all it does is increase the difficulty one has in controlling the club with little benefit otherwise.

Few players push on the club to maintain it in position because this action is almost exactly like casting the club from the top. It's the same action and it starts from the top. The difference is in the amplitude of this action. With casting, the amplitude is exaggerated and the club releases early. With retention, the club is pushed only as much as needed to keep it in position until it releases on its own. Casting is seen as such a bad move that nobody would even think of trying to do it intentionally so the pushing action is never tried.

[Avid Golfer]

Re: Release Thoughts

Don't use your hands because studies say so. What are we supposed to do with our hands then, put them together and pray? When a study contradicts personal experience, should we also disregard our personal experience in favor of this new study? With all due respect, Avid Golfer, I give little weight to research when the price of this research is the outright dismissal of my own reality. Especially when this reality already works as intended.

The original poster Tim asked for information and opinion on impact and the release of the club in the swing in the hope that the information might help him in correcting and open club face and apparent slice he is having a problem with. Being a decent to good player who has studied the swings of tour pros (and picked some of their brains ) as well as the science behind the golf swing my intention is to provide him with knowledge of what the pros say, what skilled instructors say, and what I believe. What he, you, or anyone else does with the information is entirely up to each of you as individuals.

I simply desire to provide Mr. Slaught (and anyone else with the problem) with the information that it is not necessary to try to make the arms, hands, or wrists do anything in the swing to have the clubface arrive square to the intended target at impact. I would hate to believe that he (or anyone else) would spend countless hours trying to get into a position that is unnecessary (and possibly not scientifically possible of achieving).

Mr. Levac, I can only guess at your skill level since you have not listed a handicap (or your golf scores) in your profile or your posts. You may have heard the statement that feel does not make real. It is used by many top instructors to get across the point that what you feel you are doing and what you are really doing may be two very different things (video illustrates this very well). Just because you feel that your arms, hands, or wrists are doing something in the swing doesn't necessarily mean that it is true.

That being said I want to let anyone who cares to know that scientific research, video, and my own personal feeling is that the arms, wrists, and hands don't need to be independently forced or directed in the swing to achieve a solid impact position and a shot that flies in the direction of the intended target.

Back to Mr. Slaught's problem of leaving the clubface open at impact. Mr. Slaught if you are reading this the first and most important thing I recommend you check is your grip. Unless your grip pressure is changing, to the point where you loose your grip on the club, and it is twisting in your hands the clubface will not change its position in relation to your hands.

A drill I like is to make a swing and stop at impact (even though impact is a dynamic position) and see where your clubface is pointing. If it is not online with your target loosen your grip enough to rotate the grip in your hands until the clubface is square (without moving anything else out of the impact position). Then applying the correct pressure again move from impact into your address (setup) position (without taking your hands off the club) and look at how your hands are set on the club. That is the position (or close to it) they should be in when you setup to the target. The position may look or feel drastically different than what you are accustom, but if you hit shots with your new grip you may find that they are ending up closer to your target.

[Martin Levac]

Re: Release Thoughts

I simply desire to provide Mr. Slaught (and anyone else with the problem) with the information that it is not necessary to try to make the arms, hands, or wrists do anything in the swing to have the clubface arrive square to the intended target at impact. I would hate to believe that he (or anyone else) would spend countless hours trying to get into a position that is unnecessary (and possibly not scientifically possible of achieving).

Mr. Levac, I can only guess at your skill level since you have not listed a handicap (or your golf scores) in your profile or your posts. You may have heard the statement that feel does not make real. It is used by many top instructors to get across the point that what you feel you are doing and what you are really doing may be two very different things (video illustrates this very well). Just because you feel that your arms, hands, or wrists are doing something in the swing doesn't necessarily mean that it is true.

People are indeed being told to put themselves in a position that is neither necessary nor desirable:

"I believe if you setup and swing with good posture, good balance, and a good grip the release will happen naturally for you." "Trying to flip or maneuver your wrists or hands isn't going to help achieve consistency in the swing."

It is not scientifically possible to grab the club and then not use the implements with which we grab the club to begin with. We either grab it or we don't. We either control the club or we don't. How good or bad the setup is depends entirely on how well we control the club. The proof is in the pudding, not in the recipe. We control the club as we swing it, not just during the setup.

Good or bad is conditional. But what are the conditions? Why is this setup deemed good and why is that one bad? What is the condition that makes it either good or bad? If we advise not to use the hands, then obviously the setup must take over the hands' job if it is to be deemed good. Considering the mind-boggling number of ways hands can be used and the tremendous precision with which we can use them, that task looks to be impossible at best. Achieving a good setup looks more and more futile the longer I contemplate it. I'm sure millions of golfers think the same thing before they approach the ball. "If I don't get this right, nothing is going to be alright."



I don't concern myself with what my body is doing. I only concern myself with what I do with the club. Whatever my body feels like during the swing is completely inconsequential. The only thing that bears consequence is how the club feels in my hands. I don't strike the ball with my body, I strike the ball with the club. I don't advise to feel a certain way. I explain what must be done and how to do it regardless of how it should feel. Feeling the club is the best way to get feedback on what the club is doing. That's one reason pros prefer rigid shafts.

Your advice of good posture and good setup will lead to people trying to feel their way to a good posture and good setup. Especially since you also advise not to use the hands to control the club. How else do we control the club? How else do we figure out if our setup is good or not but by feeling how our body is positioned? If you advise to film ourselves, do you also advise to bring a camera on tournaments as a swing aid? Do you also advise to look at the monitor instead of the ball as we swing the club and strike the ball? In many respects, the mirror or a coach is better than a camera. The feedback is instantaneous and more accurate and progress is much quicker.

I fear that the original poster has wasted his time with contradictions such as "don't use the hands" and whatnots for quite some time. Perhaps he learned how futile that endeavor was and found a more fruitful way to send the ball to his target. Practice is still the only way but "don't use the hands" is the worst way to practice.

With all due respect, indeed you intend to help the original poster or anybody else for that matter. But here I deem your advice to be more detrimental than otherwise and I will disagree with it as best I can. Unless of course you convince me of your advice's validity.

[dnoonan]

Re: Release Thoughts

I think the release should happen almost automatically. With no thinking involved. If you swing the club at waist level - like hitting a baseball off a T - ball set up. You will see that the arms and club rotate open on the backswing and square at impact, then is in the process of closing in the thru swing. I know that sounds easy and the release is anything but. I work with my students to think about "turn back then turn through toward the target" The release is just in the middle of that motion. I think Brian is correct in his thinking and Martin has some good points too. What do you all think? Everyone has a different view, I know. I've been teaching for 24 years and I'm learning every day. So any views will be welcome.
John Hiteshew

[ben hogan]

Re: Release Thoughts

[Avid Golfer]

Re: Release Thoughts

It is not scientifically possible to grab the club and then not use the implements with which we grab the club to begin with.

First, The hands don't twist on the club during the swing. Second, The hands don't slide on the club during the swing. Third, the fingers don't release and re-grip the club during the swing. Fourth, and finally, no decent instructor or top ranked player that I have ever heard of has advocated changing grip pressure during different parts of the golf swing. All of that goes to support that the hands play no active role in the golf swing, and they are there to hold the club in a way that allows the golfer to allow the arms and shoulder to hang with very little tension.

Achieving a good setup looks more and more futile the longer I contemplate it. I'm sure millions of golfers think the same thing before they approach the ball. "If I don't get this right, nothing is going to be alright."

Your in the minority:

"About 80% of all swing errors can be traced directly to errors and compensations in the setup or the takeaway." page 34 Your Perfect Swing by Jim Suttie

"The first thing that determines how eaisly you are able to build and repeat a sound swing is the quality of your grip and setup position: the fundamentals of golf. I once figured it out that over 75 per cent of my practice time revolves around either sharpening my short game - chipping, putting and bunker skills - or polishing the nuts and bolts of grip, posture, and alignment that effectively hold my swing together." page 29 of Nick Faldo's A Swing For Life

"Even as much as I play and practice, I'm constantly looking at my grip, posture and aim." page 13 Ernie Els How to Build a Classic Golf Swing

"A good golf swing and consistent ball striking are almost always the result of the solid foundation of a good setup." page 53 Butch Harmon's Four Cornerstones of Winning Golf

The only thing that bears consequence is how the club feels in my hands. I don't advise to feel a certain way. I explain what must be done and how to do it regardless of how it should feel. Feeling the club is the best way to get feedback on what the club is doing.

You contradict yourself with every other sentence.

"But eventually every golfer realizes he shouldn't depend on feel or timing alone. If he accepts the highs and lows that come with a reliance on feel and timing and decides not to take on a long-term program for betterment, he will continue to have his bad days while waiting for the feel and the good days." David Leadbetter in the preface of The Swing

Practice is still the only way but "don't use the hands" is the worst way to practice.

But here I deem your advice to be more detrimental than otherwise and I will disagree with it as best I can. Unless of course you convince me of your advice's validity.

That makes no logical sense. I have shown scientific support, tour pro support, renowned golf instructor support, and low handicaper support for my stance. I have seen and heard nothing by any credible sources to support your assumptions.
I will waste no more of my time discussing this with you Levac since you clearly have no interest in looking at anything rationally.
If anyone else has an feedback on what I have posted I will be happy to respond.

[Avid Golfer]

Re: Release Thoughts

I think the release should happen almost automatically. With no thinking involved. If you swing the club at waist level - like hitting a baseball off a T - ball set up. You will see that the arms and club rotate open on the backswing and square at impact, then is in the process of closing in the thru swing. I know that sounds easy and the release is anything but. I work with my students to think about "turn back then turn through toward the target" The release is just in the middle of that motion. What do you all think? Everyone has a different view, I know. I've been teaching for 24 years and I'm learning every day. So any views will be welcome.
John Hiteshew

If you swing the arms, but don't turn the shoulders or torso the arms will rotate like you are describing. While that is one way to swing a club I think it lacks the ability to produce power the way one that involves the rotation of the shoulders and torso does.

David Leadbetter, Rick Smith, Nick Faldo, and Nick Price have all said that club face rotation at the 8 clock position and hip high position is an optical illusion based on your spine tilt and where your head and eyes are positioned. They have each said if you step around to face the club in that position (without moving the club from its position) you will find that it is square to your body still (just like it was at address). I have also heard that the optical illusion is a result of the club swinging on an arc or semi circle. (The club head swinging on a large semi circle path while the grip end swings on a mini semi circle. Rick Smith has illustrated this better than any other instructor I know).

I agree that you can learn something every day, and in some cases it hits you that you learned the same thing once before, forgot it, and just relearned it again.

[Martin Levac]

Re: Release Thoughts

Fourth, and finally, no decent instructor or top ranked player that I have ever heard of has advocated changing grip pressure during different parts of the golf swing. All of that goes to support that the hands play no active role in the golf swing, and they are there to hold the club in a way that allows the golfer to allow the arms and shoulder to hang with very little tension.

Your in the minority:
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You contradict yourself with every other sentence.
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That makes no logical sense. I have shown scientific support, tour pro support, renowned golf instructor support, and low handicaper support for my stance. I have seen and heard nothing by any credible sources to support your assumptions.
I will waste no more of my time discussing this with you Levac since you clearly have no interest in looking at anything rationally.
If anyone else has an feedback on what I have posted I will be happy to respond.

Not because it is not taught, at least as far as you know, that it is incorrect or invalid. Conversely, not because it is taught, as far as you know, that it makes it correct or valid. Just yesterday, I read about a long standing myth in the weightlifting world that no matter how unfounded it is, is perpetuated only because it's a requirement for certification. And throughout my search for golf literature I've not found a single reference to the fundamental principles of colliding bodies or the magnus effect as part of a set of lessons. Only with persistence did I find that information and not where I was looking in the first place. Had I learned about it to begin with, I wouldn't have messed around with erroneous instruction and would have gone directly to the crux of the matter, so to speak. So you see, bad things are still taught while good things are kept secret. It serves little purpose to bring supporting evidence when the argument is flawed to begin with.

I am in the minority and that's fine by me. I think that the basis of all errors in golf is the lack of understanding of the fundamental principles of colliding bodies and the magnus effect. Even today new golfers are asking what's wrong with their swing when all they had to do was apply those principles to get the ball airborne. Alas, they continue to fail because they continue to try the impossible. "the hands play no active role in the golf swing" is one such impossibility. Once we know and understand those principles, we waste no time applying them correctly by striking the ball downward and making it fly far and high.

You say I contradict myself. Show the contradictions please.