Puzzled about thumbs

[bdbl]

Martin's reply below rang some bells in my Saga memory but rather than hi-jack the post I thought I'd start a new post.

I did a search and found that Martin has posted similar advice a number of times - no complaint about that btw as it's based on Bradley, Leadbetter and before that on Hogan so a reasonable amount of credibility goes with it and good advice bears repetition anyway.

Then I found what I was looking for, i.e. Neil's post from over a year ago in which he basically calls the short-thumb advice twaddle and the subsequent debate which revealed two camps; in simplistic terms those who think "twaddle" and those who think "fundamental".

I'm kind of agnostic I guess.

Having just looked at my thumb to find it is only about two and a bit inches long, and with a odd double joint that bends it backwards from the club shaft anyhow, I'm puzzled at how much difference there can actually be between "short" and "long" and quite how it can significantly effect wrist movement and / or release.

That said I'm open to persuasion either way; any edge in this game is worth having.

[BrianW]

Re: Puzzled about thumbs

Now you mention it Robin it does not look much like the Pope!

I think Nick Bradley suggested that the short thumb prevented injury to one of the bones in the hand and increased flexibility of the wrist.

I think I should check the book out in case I am talking twaddle.

[Martin Levac]

Re: Puzzled about thumbs

The short/long thumb refers to a position of the left thumb (for a right hander), not the actual length. The "short thumb" would be when we flex it and press on the club's handle to push it away somewhat. The "long thumb" would be when we extend it down the handle of the club so that the club has more freedom of movement and thus will drop lower at the top of the backswing. It doesn't act on the wrist as much as it controls the starting position and amplitude of motion of the club.

I first heard about this in a reference about Hogan's fundamentals. To sum it up, Hogan was looking for more control after he thought that the club was too loose up there and the short thumb is what he came up with.

[bdbl]

Re: Puzzled about thumbs

Sorry Martin I was a bit careless in my OP. I knew, from my Leadbetter's "Faults and Fixes", that short / long could be better described as "flexed / extended" but didn't make that clear.

What I still don't understand is why it makes a difference other than Leadbetter, in this case, Hogan in yours, telling us that it is better and we taking it on trust.

[Martin Levac]

Re: Puzzled about thumbs

Do what you want. I do.

[Neil18]

Re: Puzzled about thumbs

Sorry Martin I was a bit careless in my OP. I knew, from my Leadbetter's "Faults and Fixes", that short / long could be better described as "flexed / extended" but didn't make that clear.

What I still don't understand is why it makes a difference other than Leadbetter, in this case, Hogan in yours, telling us that it is better and we taking it on trust.

Hey bdbl,

The long and short thumb differences are not massive. In basic terms, a short thumb will see the thumb pad pressed onto the grip (ie the bit bearing your thumb print) where as the long left thumb sees the bit just below the thumb joint resting on the shaft.

The difference it provides is referred to as "radial deviate". With a short thumb, increasing the angle between shaft and left forearm in the downswing to get lag is hard. Pressing the pad of the left thumb onto the shaft prevents it from attaining maximum leverage.

The long(er) thumb allows more angle to be achieved as a result of the changing direction at the top, hence leaving the clubhead behind more than with the short thumb. A player can always attain more lag with a longer thumb than a shorter one.

Try it. Just hold a club as you would, left hand only, and first have a rediculously short thumb with the thumb pad resting on the grip. Try to increase the angle of lag by pulling on the shaft with your right hand. It can't be done. Your left thumb stops it.

Now go to a rediculously long thumb (where your entire left thumb is on the shaft. This may change your grip a bit but it's just for illustration purposes). Now do the same thing and try to increase the angle. You should be able to get the 90 degree wrist cock increased by at least another 45 degrees.

The "long left thumb" really isn't long at all. VJ has the longest left thumb among the pro's as he actually has it poking out in the V of his right hand. Have you seen his lag?! Crazy!!

Ideally, the long left thumb should be long enough to rest the base of it almost dead flat on the shaft, but not so long that it looks like your giving the grip the "thumbs up". It's a happy compromise, I guess.

Of course, knowing this doesn't mean that one should use one or the other method. We could use both. A short thumb for controlled pitches and a longer one for a beefy whack!

The tell-tale sign of a left thumb that may be too short on a long shot is a noticable gap between left hand and shaft at the base of the thumb.

OK, I've typed the word "thumb" far too often. Unavoidable!

[bdbl]

Re: Puzzled about thumbs

"Radial Deviate" eh Neil, sounds like something from "Law and Order: Special Victims Unit".

Seriously though thanks for your informative reply; my grip is somewhat Veejay like, at least in respect of the thumb positioning, but I doubt if I maintain the lag quite as well though

[Martin Levac]

Re: Puzzled about thumbs

"Radial Deviate" eh Neil, sounds like something from "Law and Order: Special Victims Unit".

Seriously though thanks for your informative reply; my grip is somewhat Veejay like, at least in respect of the thumb positioning, but I doubt if I maintain the lag quite as well though

So does that answer your question of "why it makes a difference telling you that it is better and you taking it on trust"?

[Neil18]

Re: Puzzled about thumbs

So does that answer your question of "why it makes a difference telling you that it is better and you taking it on trust"?

[BrianW]

Re: Puzzled about thumbs

Now you mention it Robin it does not look much like the Pope!

I think Nick Bradley suggested that the short thumb prevented injury to one of the bones in the hand and increased flexibility of the wrist.

I think I should check the book out in case I am talking twaddle.

This is what Nick Bradley says about it:

"KEY GRIP FLAW - The Long Left Thumb."

"This is one of the most common and most destructive grip flaws. Extending the left thumb down the handle of the grip causes several problems and has many damaging effects in the swing. The left hand, wrist and forearm act as shock absorbers through impact as the club strikes the turf. When the left thumb is placed in the correct position, the tendons in your hands have the ability to flex, bounce and withstand this force. However, when the left thumb is in an elongated position, the tendons in the left hand become stretched, taught and susceptible to injury, especially if the golfer is holding the club too tightly - an automatic knock on effect of the long left thumb"

He also mentions that the long left thumb encourages the shaft to be held more in the palm of the hand instead of the fingers and gripped too tightly, this affects the mobility of a joint in the hand called the "Capitate" which will severely restrict wrist action.

[Scragger63]

Re: Puzzled about thumbs

Before I read this thread, I hadn't even considered my thumb's position in the grip...

Now, having checked, I'm going to cast my vote in favour of "short"......

[Neil18]

Re: Puzzled about thumbs

Before I read this thread, I hadn't even considered my thumb's position in the grip...

Now, having checked, I'm going to cast my vote in favour of "short"......

As long as it's only your vote you're casting!

I'm on the fence. Mine is neither short nor long. It's between the two. For me, long is too long for the proper grip to be employed on full shots (but is useful when learning how to lag the club) and too short is not useful on long shots. It's decent on pitches though.

Just wanted to make that clear where I am. I'm longer than short but shorter than long!

[Avid Golfer]

Re: Puzzled about thumbs

Both Greg Norman and Butch Harmon have said a short thumb vs a long thumb is a matter of personal preference. Greg Norman had said he prefers a short thumb as he felt it generates more pressure in the middle, ring, and little finger of his left hand, and he felt it resulted in a crisper more compact backswing.

I believe a short thumb vs long thumb may make a difference in how and where your wrist, arm, and shoulder are able to move as well as where pressure is generated in those same areas. There have been people who have won professional golf tournaments using both thumb positions, so I don't believe that either is definitively correct or incorrect. I recommend basing your decision on which is more comfortable to you, and what you are trying to do with your swing. If you are trying to make a more compact swing then the short thumb may assist you in that endeavor.