driver shaft length

[prakcom]

Hi!
My driver is not custom fitted for me and I need to grip it about 2 inch lower to get correct swing or else I hit out-in shot. I checked with ping guys (I have G5 9deg offset) and they do not recommend shaft length change due to some technicality. Please advise what adjustment i should do to get straight longer shot with this driver. Thanks.

[BrianW]

Re: driver shaft length

It depends exactly what is happening. By gripping down you have a better chance of making solid contact in the clubs sweetspot but will loose some swing speed due to the shorter swig radius.

You say you hit-out in the shot, by that I guess you mean you are pushing the ball, if this is the case you will need to improve how you release the clubface through impact. When you are practicing try taking a two handed type baseball grip on the club and see if this allows you to square the clubfce better, you could also ensure your grip and wrists are not strained.

[LowPost42]

Re: driver shaft length

OK.

By lopping off two inches:

You'll lighten the feel of the club 12 swingweight points. In other words, if it's D2 now, it'll be C0. To offset this, you'd have to find a way to get 24g back at the head end of the club... hence why I don't put much stock in a target swingweight. Try it 12 points lighter and see if you don't like it!

The club will be easier to swing as you'll have shortened your lever by 2". This will make the club much easier to manipulate. But you're already seeing this. If your out-in comment refers to your swingpath, having a 'too long' club will pull you outside the line if you can't control it; forcing your outside-in path.

You've gotta play the right length. The best golfers on the planet can't control a 46" driver - and most don't play anything longer than 44.5", either - because they can't control them. Why on earth would you expect to?

I say get it cut down. Damn the torpedos.

[Martin Levac]

Re: driver shaft length

I shortened both a driver and 3w. I couldn't control them properly at first. I put lead tape on the head to get used to it. Eventually when I got used to it, I took the tape off and can now play with the clubs better than when they were longer. At times I wish I had the clubs longer but then I remember how badly I played with them before.

Any potential benefit gained from the extra length is lost on the decreased precision that accompanies this extra length. I swing the club faster but hit the ball worse. I prefer to hit the ball better no matter how fast I hit it.

[prakcom]

Re: driver shaft length

You say you hit-out in the shot, by that I guess you mean you are pushing the ball, if this is the case you will need to improve how you release the clubface through impact. When you are practicing try taking a two handed type baseball grip on the club and see if this allows you to square the clubfce better, you could also ensure your grip and wrists are not strained.

I am pulling the ball. The ball flight goes to the left initially and then fades to the right. Interesting part is that both combination get the ball to the place were I aim. But I loose lot of distance and also in tree lined tee I get into serious trouble. There is also a possibility that my right wrist is holding a bit back (I had sprained my wrist few month back). Can there be any backswing problem (I don't have chicken wing problem).

[bdbl]

Re: driver shaft length

OK.

By lopping off two inches:

You'll lighten the feel of the club 12 swingweight points. In other words, if it's D2 now, it'll be C0.

Ok, now here's thing for me. If I was offered the choice between a 6oz 8oz or 12oz steak I could visualise that, but in the abstract the difference between a swingweight of D2 and C0 means nothing.

As posted in a different thread I'm thinking of getting an inch taken off my driver; would that mean a 6 swingweight point change (whatever that might be ) ? and, taking the hoped for benefits as read, what else do you think an average joe hacker would actually notice?

In passing, again ignoring whether it could be applied correctly in the first place, how much speed would you lose per inch of shaft?

[BrianW]

Re: driver shaft length

Ok, now here's thing for me. If I was offered the choice between a 6oz 8oz or 12oz steak I could visualise that, but in the abstract the difference between a swingweight of D2 and C0 means nothing.

As posted in a different thread I'm thinking of getting an inch taken off my driver; would that mean a 6 swingweight point change (whatever that might be ) ? and, taking the hoped for benefits as read, what else do you think an average joe hacker would actually notice?

In passing, again ignoring whether it could be applied correctly in the first place, how much speed would you lose per inch of shaft?

This site has some interesting information on shaft length and club technology:

http://www.mcnixgolf.com/html/shaft_length.html

[LowPost42]

Re: driver shaft length

Ok, now here's thing for me. If I was offered the choice between a 6oz 8oz or 12oz steak I could visualise that, but in the abstract the difference between a swingweight of D2 and C0 means nothing.

As posted in a different thread I'm thinking of getting an inch taken off my driver; would that mean a 6 swingweight point change (whatever that might be ) ? and, taking the hoped for benefits as read, what else do you think an average joe hacker would actually notice?

In passing, again ignoring whether it could be applied correctly in the first place, how much speed would you lose per inch of shaft?

IIRC, it's around 5 yards per inch in potential distance lost. I say potential because you're probably not near the sweet spot consistently. So, for the 5 yards you 'just gave up', you probably gain them back by getting close to the sweet spot again.

[bdbl]

Re: driver shaft length

IIRC, it's around 5 yards per inch in potential distance lost. I say potential because you're probably not near the sweet spot consistently. So, for the 5 yards you 'just gave up', you probably gain them back by getting close to the sweet spot again.

Just to prove that I'm not really that lazy I also did some google research on this most of which agrees with Ben and says more or less the same....

(this from www.strikerightgolf.co.uk)

Fact 2
Getting the shaft length right has to be one of the most important factors in club fitting, if the club is too long for the golfers ability, it will mean an increase in off centre hits/missed centre of gravity, resulting in off line shots and a massive loss in distance. There is at least a 5% loss in distance on a drive for every ½" you miss off centre, so, if you're capable of carrying your drives 220yds, you'll be down to 209yds if you miss the centre by ½", miss by ¾" you're down to 203yds and miss by a 1" and your 220yd drive is now only 200yds.

Fact 4
When tested, the average golfer increases their club head speed only 2mph when using a 45½" driver over that of a 43½" driver; but, when they fail to hit the centre of the golf club (and they will) due to the extra length the lost distance will be dramatic. The average golfer will hit a longer ball with a 43½" driver than he would with a 45½" driver so preverlent today.

So it seems cut and dried. A lot more upside than downside right? except that this same site goes on to say...


By reducing the shaft length of the club by 1" the golfer reduces the swing weight of his new driver from D2 to C6 a total of 6 swing-weights, (although he only reduced the actual/physical weight a few grams) he has upset the overall balance of this club, rendered the club virtually unplayable, the golfer will get no feel or feed back from the club head during the swing, leaving the club lighter and stiffer than before.

....would you guys agree with the "virtually unplayable" statement?


.... if I ask my local "workshop" to cut down the shaft do I ask them to adjust the swingweight (presumably by adding 12g of lead tape to the head)?

You know that look that computer geeks or car mechanics reserve for the ignorant? well my workshop does a version for ignorant golfers that I'd like to avoid by having a rough idea of what's going on - at least here I can't see Bens's pity

[BrianW]

Re: driver shaft length

Just to prove that I'm not really that lazy I also did some google research on this most of which agrees with Ben and says more or less the same....

(this from www.strikerightgolf.co.uk)

Fact 2
Getting the shaft length right has to be one of the most important factors in club fitting, if the club is too long for the golfers ability, it will mean an increase in off centre hits/missed centre of gravity, resulting in off line shots and a massive loss in distance. There is at least a 5% loss in distance on a drive for every ½" you miss off centre, so, if you're capable of carrying your drives 220yds, you'll be down to 209yds if you miss the centre by ½", miss by ¾" you're down to 203yds and miss by a 1" and your 220yd drive is now only 200yds.

Fact 4
When tested, the average golfer increases their club head speed only 2mph when using a 45½" driver over that of a 43½" driver; but, when they fail to hit the centre of the golf club (and they will) due to the extra length the lost distance will be dramatic. The average golfer will hit a longer ball with a 43½" driver than he would with a 45½" driver so preverlent today.

So it seems cut and dried. A lot more upside than downside right? except that this same site goes on to say...


By reducing the shaft length of the club by 1" the golfer reduces the swing weight of his new driver from D2 to C6 a total of 6 swing-weights, (although he only reduced the actual/physical weight a few grams) he has upset the overall balance of this club, rendered the club virtually unplayable, the golfer will get no feel or feed back from the club head during the swing, leaving the club lighter and stiffer than before.

....would you guys agree with the "virtually unplayable" statement?


.... if I ask my local "workshop" to cut down the shaft do I ask them to adjust the swingweight (presumably by adding 12g of lead tape to the head)?

You know that look that computer geeks or car mechanics reserve for the ignorant? well my workshop does a version for ignorant golfers that I'd like to avoid by having a rough idea of what's going on - at least here I can't see Bens's pity

Although a driverholic my knowledge of club fitting is rather limited. I did have an inch taken off one of my drivers and did not notice any lack of feel, come to think of it I cant say that there is really any feedback from a driver other than that felt by a badly off centre hit, its more of a "Toink!!" and by the time you have any sensation from the shaft the ball is long gone.

My uneducated guess would be that a slightly shorter shaft is easier to control with little or no change in the feel of the club.

[LowPost42]

Re: driver shaft length

....would you guys agree with the "virtually unplayable" statement?

No. Unequivacably, no.

.... if I ask my local "workshop" to cut down the shaft do I ask them to adjust the swingweight (presumably by adding 12g of lead tape to the head)?

You could. This will effectively weaken the shaft by a half flex. To combat this, you could have the length taken from the tip versus the butt (assuming there's enough tip to take the length from). They're right in saying you'll lose feel. But the human body is fantastic - I'm sure your proprioception will kick in and still detect things for you.

You know that look that computer geeks or car mechanics reserve for the ignorant? well my workshop does a version for ignorant golfers that I'd like to avoid by having a rough idea of what's going on - at least here I can't see Bens's pity

As we've sussed out, swingweight is a function of length, weight, and importantly, the position of the balance point. By lightening the head or shortening the length we effectively move the fulcrum. I don't think you're moving it so far as to make the club unplayable.

As we in the clubmaking world like to say: I can make you a club that swingweights at C0 (a 'ladies standard swingweight'), but you won't be able to swing it at all. The fastest way would be to build a 4 foot driver with a ton of backweight. This will fool the swingweight scale, and you'll have a driver at C0. But for a 4 foot driver, C0 is too light a swingweight - the balance will be totally thrown out.

Conversely, I could build you a 3 foot driver with the heaviest head I could find and a heavy steel shaft, and it could swingweight in the high D's, and you could hit it just fine.

Swingweight is a result... for all those contemplating chopping off some length to find some control, do it. You can always add an inch back.

[bdbl]

Re: driver shaft length

My uneducated guess would be that a slightly shorter shaft is easier to control with little or no change in the feel of the club.

That would be my uneducated guess too but luckily Ben is more knowledgeable and he concurs.

No. Unequivacably, no.

Swingweight is a result... for all those contemplating chopping off some length to find some control, do it. You can always add an inch back.

Thanks to both of you.

I'll report back when it (if) it stops raining.

Robin

ps. I'd sort of guessed the meaning but, for those, who like me, would otherwise had to look it up.

Proprioception is "the process by which the body can vary muscle contraction in immediate response to incoming information regarding external forces," by utilizing stretch receptors in the muscles to keep track of the joint position in the body.

Proprioception and kinesthesia, the sensation of joint motion and acceleration, are the sensory feedback mechanisms for motor control and posture. Theses mechanisms along with the vestibular system, a fluid filled network within the inner ear that can feel the pull of gravity and helps the body keep oriented and balanced, are unconsciously utilized by the brain to provide a constant influx of sensory information. The brain can then send out immediate and unconscious adjustments to the muscles and joints in order to achieve movement and balance.

[BrianW]

Re: driver shaft length

That would be my uneducated guess too but luckily Ben is more knowledgeable and he concurs.



Thanks to both of you.

I'll report back when it (if) it stops raining.

Robin

ps. I'd sort of guessed the meaning but, for those, who like me, would otherwise had to look it up.

Proprioception is "the process by which the body can vary muscle contraction in immediate response to incoming information regarding external forces," by utilizing stretch receptors in the muscles to keep track of the joint position in the body.

Proprioception and kinesthesia, the sensation of joint motion and acceleration, are the sensory feedback mechanisms for motor control and posture. Theses mechanisms along with the vestibular system, a fluid filled network within the inner ear that can feel the pull of gravity and helps the body keep oriented and balanced, are unconsciously utilized by the brain to provide a constant influx of sensory information. The brain can then send out immediate and unconscious adjustments to the muscles and joints in order to achieve movement and balance.

Didn't need to look up "Toink" then?

[Avid Golfer]

Re: driver shaft length

Hi!
My driver is not custom fitted for me and I need to grip it about 2 inch lower to get correct swing or else I hit out-in shot. I checked with ping guys (I have G5 9deg offset) and they do not recommend shaft length change due to some technicality. Please advise what adjustment i should do to get straight longer shot with this driver. Thanks.

I'm curious are you setting up to the shot and then gripping down, or are you gripping down and then setting up to the shot? During the act of gripping down your balance, posture, and distance from the ball may be changing. (You may be putting more wieght towards your toes and standing closer to the ball when you make the move to grip down).

Setup without gripping down and then do so again gripping down. Note how you feel each time as it relates to balance and posture. Do you feel any different?
(When not gripping down: Does your weight feel back toward your heels? Do your arms feel like they are not hanging as freely?)

You may also want to check yourself in a mirror at setup. Do you look any different at setup when you grip down?

I am pulling the ball. The ball flight goes to the left initially and then fades to the right. Interesting part is that both combination get the ball to the place were I aim. But I loose lot of distance and also in tree lined tee I get into serious trouble. There is also a possibility that my right wrist is holding a bit back (I had sprained my wrist few month back). Can there be any backswing problem (I don't have chicken wing problem).

Pulls can originate from a number of different things. (Your alignment, balance, ball position, your transistion, or a number of other factors). Since you're probably not changing your alignment or ball position when you take the action of gripping down they are not likely the problem either, but it is difficult to speculate on with out seeing your setup or swing.

Since your ball is finishing where you aim regardless of if you grip down or not it means your club is square to the target at impact. That suggests that you probably have a sound grip, and it is not likely the cause of your problem. (It also means your wirst is likely not the problem either).

Like others have said cutting down your club will change its physical properies (swing weight, etc), and once you do it there is no going back. (Yes you could later add an extension, or have the club reshafted, but it still will not be exactly the same as the original shaft).

I suggest you check (or have someone you know and trust check) your balance, posture, and distance from the ball before you make any changes to the club.

[bdbl]

Re: driver shaft length

I'll report back when it (if) it stops raining.

Took the plunge - had an inch choppped off. Might just prove to be the best £5 I've spent on golf, thanks again for the encouragement to do it.

The guy did a throrough job; adding weight to rebalance the club (he put the weight inside the shaft) and managed to reuse the old grip which saved a few bob.

Anyway I feel so much happier on the tee now - without ever actually "nailing" one I was hitting the ball a lot better and even the mishits were less damaging; as I went round I could feel my confidence growing.

Unfortunately the greens were so dead as to make you lose the will to live which didn't help the scoring. I then suffered 3 moments of what can only be called severe mental fragility when faced with the knowledge I was doing well - e.g. the long uphill Par 5, normally a card wrecker, greenside in 3, down in 8 , still a card wrecker.

Despite the 3 blow ups and some dodgy course management I was only 3 off the PB.

So now at last I'm looking forward to the spring - extra carry & roll might be useful now I can hit the damned thing - the greens should speed up and with luck I'll get used to being in reach of a good score and not blow it.