Grip and position at top....

[Macca_NZ]

Hi

I have been getting the face closed at the top of my backswing lately causing a lot of pulls / hooks.

Anyway I have noticed that when using the normal grip of mine - quite a strong grip (mostly in the fingers) i get into this closed position at the top. With a cuped left wrist.

However when adopting a more neutral grip at address (slightly more in palm - not just fingers) I end up with a much straighter left wrist at the top of the backswing.

Is this to be expected??? That grip will effect who the wrists hinge and as such the relative positionof club at top?

Or is my changing of grip irrelelevent to the postion of the left wrist at top of swing?


Cheers

[GregJWillis]

Re: Grip and position at top....

You have it right, a stronger left grip creates a cup in the left (leading) wrist. When you set your wrists, the left has to flex up now, and not so much on it's side, the cupping is a result of the up motion. This is not a bad thing to show a little cup there. You defiantly do not want convex bowing of the wrist.

Being shut at the top has more to do with how you allow your arms to stay connected to your rotation and having the arms simply roll open at you take the club back with that takeaway flowing motion. If you hinder the natural roll in any way by trying to keep the arms still, or fight it into positions you can easily become shut at the top. Don't force the arms to roll either. Just let them naturally allow the leading arm to fold over the trailing arm going back, and then they will be in the proper alignments.

[Avid Golfer]

Re: Grip and position at top....

Hi

I have been getting the face closed at the top of my backswing lately causing a lot of pulls / hooks.

To be scientific the pulls and hooks are a result of your club face being closed at impact, and aren't caused by the position of the club face at the top of the swing. (The top of swing position just illistrates that you may later be closed at impact depending on the move(s) you make to start your transition/downswing.)

Anyway I have noticed that when using the normal grip of mine - quite a strong grip (mostly in the fingers) i get into this closed position at the top. With a cuped left wrist.

However when adopting a more neutral grip at address (slightly more in palm - not just fingers) I end up with a much straighter left wrist at the top of the backswing.

Is this to be expected??? That grip will effect who the wrists hinge and as such the relative positionof club at top?

Or is my changing of grip irrelelevent to the postion of the left wrist at top of swing?

Cheers

Your grip may be a contributor to the position at the top, but there are other factors as well (including how you take the club away starting back, and what movements you make during the backswing).

To be scientific again cupping the wrist is moving it up and down (with your thumb moving toward your arm - like you may do when hammering a nail), and hinging the wrist is when your wrist moves back towards your arm (like a waiter carrying a tray). If you look at tour pros (or read Nick Faldo's: Golf the Winning Formula) you'll see that the pros prefer the hinging motion to the cupping motion.

Regardless, I'd be more concerned with the position of your wrists and clubface at impact as opposed to the postion at the top of the swing. Major champions have had the position you refered to at the top of the swing, so you can play good golf from that position. The top of the swing postion is not an absolute determining factor in how (or where) you arrive at impact. Look at Fred Couples for eample.

http://www.teamtalk.com/Images/67611.jpg
http://www.beauproductions.com/golfs...es/fredgs2.jpg
http://www.golfdigest.co.za/images/s...tion_3_pic.jpg

Fred Couples has a strong left hand grip, arrives at the top of the swing in the position you describe, and then arrives at impact producing straight shots and fades because of the moves he makes in his transistion/downswing. (Counter to the opinions you may hear on TV he also draws it on occasion. I've followed him at a few tournaments and seen him hit draws and straight shots all day long - with out ever hitting a fade ).

[Martin Levac]

Re: Grip and position at top....

I practice in front of a mirror to check wrist cock position at the top. I grip the club and bring it up this way (for a right hander):

- Left elbow is pointed at the mirror
- Clubhead is pointed behind me
- Left hand, left shoulder, clubhead are all level horizontally
- I can see all three on the same level in the mirror

Through the mirror, I check the leading edge of the clubhead and determine if it's open, square or closed. More specifically, I check if it's aligned with the entire left arm. Then I adjust the grip to put the club in the position I want. Then I swing to impact slowly to check the result. I repeat until I find a position that I can play with.

The position that counts is the one at impact, not at the top. But the one at the top is correlating nicely with the one at impact. When I'm playing and there's no mirror, I can check all this by doing the same motions but instead of checking in a mirror, I check the clubhead directly behind me.

I can also grip the club in the air directly in front of me with the clubhead pointed up and check the clubhead's leading edge there. The alignment there is between the leading edge and the left forearm. Of the three positions, it's the most difficult to align so it takes the most practice. The three positions (in the mirror, behind me, in front of me) all correlate nicely so that with practice eventually all I check is the position in the air directly in front of me.

[Macca_NZ]

Re: Grip and position at top....

[quote=Avid Golfer;10549942]

To be scientific again cupping the wrist is moving it up and down (with your thumb moving toward your arm - like you may do when hammering a nail), and hinging the wrist is when your wrist moves back towards your arm (like a waiter carrying a tray). If you look at tour pros (or read Nick Faldo's: Golf the Winning Formula) you'll see that the pros prefer the hinging motion to the cupping motion.
quote]

Thanks for the responses.

I am a bit confused regarding the preferred type of wrist hinge................

I always thought the preferred type was the hinge you perform when standing straight up with the club pointing directly out in front of you at waist height and moving the club with your hands only so the club head moves vertically towards the roof and your forhead. This type of hinge is the preferred?

Is this not the case?

I didn't think that type of hinge was the waiter holding the plate and more the thumb towards the arm motion????

Very interested in comments.

[Neil18]

Re: Grip and position at top....

Hey Macca,

I think this should cover it:

http://www.newgolfswing.com/newgolfswing05.php

[Martin Levac]

Re: Grip and position at top....

The correct terms for the wrist motions can be found here under Special Motions of the Hands and Feet:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatomical_terms_of_motion

Note on the chart where it says "surfaces of the hands and feet". It explains how the term plantarflexion can be used for the hand by using the prefix palmar instead for palmarflexion.

- Pronation / Supination is as turning a key
- Dorsiflexion / Palmarflexion is as swatting a fly
- Eversion / Inversion is as a karate chop

All motions apply to the left hand for a right hander. The wrist cock is a combination of:

- Pronation
- Dorsiflexion
- Inversion

The release is a combination of the opposite of the above:

- Supination
- Palmarflexion
- Eversion

To limit the amount of wrist cock at the top, we limit the amount of dorsiflexion/palmarflexion to keep the wrist fully extended or flat. Then the wrist will be forced to flex by eversion/inversion instead (as a karate chop). The Secret from Greg Norman and other swing aids all aim to restrict dorsiflexion/palmarflexion to teach the flat left wrist.

At different points during the swing, all actions will affect the clubface alignment but the motion that affect it most is dorsiflexion/palmarflexion because of how we grip the club. Use the drill I explained above to check how each motion affect the club. The clubface alignment and dorsiflexion/palmarflexion is most obvious when checking through the mirror.

Here's how the motions affect the club primarily:

Pronation/Supination: Swing plane angle and club shaft alignment relative to swing plane
Dorsiflexion/Palmarflexion: Clubface alignment square/open/closed
Eversion/Inversion: Club cock angle especially at the top

[Avid Golfer]

Re: Grip and position at top....

I am a bit confused regarding the preferred type of wrist hinge................

I always thought the preferred type was the hinge you perform when standing straight up with the club pointing directly out in front of you at waist height and moving the club with your hands only so the club head moves vertically towards the roof and your forhead. This type of hinge is the preferred?

Is this not the case?

I didn't think that type of hinge was the waiter holding the plate and more the thumb towards the arm motion????

Very interested in comments.

That is a popular misconception (that the vertical cocking toward the roof or forehead is preferred). As Faldo said in his first book that is the way many beginners are taught because it is easy to understand, and because you get the illusion from the face on view that that is keeping the angle between the arms and club shaft on the way down (but if we look at the swing from down the line we see the real reason why the angle is maintained between the shaft and the arms on the downswing).

To quote from page 83 of Nick Faldo's Golf the Winning Formula:
"I am now going to explain the second dimension to the wrist cock and explain what late hitting means and how the two are related. In the first dimension you hinge the wrists up and are simply preparing to whip them down again. That would be great if you wanted to pick the club up and to smash down on the ground in front of you. But we want to generate power and to generate power in a kind of sideways, virtually horizontal direction."

If you look at the picture of Nick Faldo and Stuart Appleby below you can see that the right wrist is hinged back (in the waiter position) hip high on the downswing, and it is maintained because of the direction the shaft is dropping down behind them.

In the picture you can see that the top of their right wrists (near the thumb area) is above the shaft on the downswing while the rest of the wrist is below the shaft which illustrates that the hinged back position is being maintained (which helps to store and produce power). (It also illustrates a lot of other good things, like shallow angle of attack, too. )


(http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/899...ighdownvs4.jpg)

[BrianW]

Re: Grip and position at top....

This video explains nicely the action of the wrists and the relation to the clubface through the back and downswings:

http://www.golftipsmag.com/video/ins...ing-hoops.html

[jambalaya]

Re: Grip and position at top....

This video explains nicely the action of the wrists and the relation to the clubface through the back and downswings:

http://www.golftipsmag.com/video/ins...ing-hoops.html

When does the right wrist break back? In his demonstration he shows the right wrist turning over at the top but there is no angle between the top of his hand and the forearm. No "waiter carrying a tray" position that is always talked about. No "right hand drill" look. However the video makes perfect sense. I like how it illustrates what your right arm should be doing. Very important.

[jambalaya]

Re: Grip and position at top....

.......allow the leading arm to fold over the trailing arm going back, and then they will be in the proper alignments.

I like that desription. That and Brian's hula hoop video tells me a lot based on my current understanding of my swing.

[BrianW]

Re: Grip and position at top....

When does the right wrist break back? In his demonstration he shows the right wrist turning over at the top but there is no angle between the top of his hand and the forearm. No "waiter carrying a tray" position that is always talked about. No "right hand drill" look. However the video makes perfect sense. I like how it illustrates what your right arm should be doing. Very important.

Jamb,

In the video he is showing you what happens to the clubface which is very similar to what happens to your wrists. When you allow this to happen in the swing the right elbow folds into your side and as the wrist turns back you will be in a waiter and tray position.

Regarding the wrist break: The wrists will already be cocked around 45 degrees, at address your wrists will not be straight. Try this: Take a club and address a ball, now release the grip with your right hand letting your arm hang naturally, rotate your right hand 90 degrees right so your palm is pointing away from you, now see how far you can break your wrist to the right. It will be little or nothing. In my humble opinion there tends to be too much emphasis placed on the wrist break, most of the power in the release is created by bringing the clubface from its open position to one that is square to target.

I hope this makes some sense to you.

[BrianW]

Re: Grip and position at top....

While on the subject of release and the wrist hinge, the following article is quite enlightening:

Golf And Your Wrist

October 30, 2007 - 6:29 pm | Golf Digest PH Staff
By Dr. Vince Gomez
Recently, the wrist has become the subject of some golf chatter surrounding the pro tour. For those who follow Jennifer Rosales (our own JRo) closely, they know that her wrists were the source of many problems and injuries requiring her to modify her swing to prevent injury and help her game. Michelle Wie fell while jogging and hurt her wrists. Although she was supposed to have recovered, she still couldn’t play well enough to break 80 and she had to withdraw rather than risk losing her card due to the dreaded “88” rule. And, most significantly, there was Lefty (Phil Mickelson) who hurt his wrists and has been playing dismally since.
Many of you golfers have also had your share of wrist problems. The most common complaint I get in my clinic regarding the wrist is pain after grounding the club or hitting a branch, rock or root. The pain is usually in the leading arm, in the ulnar side of the wrist. The pain is worse when the wrist is rotated or when the wrist is cocked back and carries the club. This pain can be very disabling and can make playing golf impossible. If you have a back spasm, you can still play with a corset brace. If you have an ankle sprain, you can still take the cart practically up to the ball and play it. If you have golfer’s elbow, you can still swing the club and hit the ball as long as your swing is shorter. But, the wrist? If the wrist hurts, you can’t pick up the club but if you can pick it up to swing it, you are so afraid of hitting the ground that in most cases, you flinch or drop the club. So, you can’t play and this, in many ways, makes the wrist the most important area of the body as far as playing golf is concerned. A study conducted among the top 226 American players in the PGA and the LPGA showed that 93 (24%) had left wrist problems with the right affected in only 3%.

What is interesting to note is that in elite golfers like Tiger and Vijay (and Phil M), the wrists do not uncock. The forearms rotate and this causes the rolling over of the wrists.
So how do you hurt your wrist?
The main injuries when your wrist is hurt playing golf are divided into two types:
1) Tendinitis from overuse. This is from repetitive microtrauma. Due to bad golf mechanics or inadequate strength, too much stress is placed on the collagen fibers of the tendons around the wrist causing a micro-rupture of the fibers. The tendons don’t tear but they become stretched out causing pain tenderness and inability to move the wrist without pain. This is not necessarily from too much practice. If the mechanics of the swing are wrong meaning your grip is wrong, or the wrist tendons work too hard to hang on to the club and this causes tendinitis.
From a practical point of view, avoid three things:
* Overswinging, letting your wrists break at the top of the swing and the club drops.
* Casting the club rather than controlling the club through the swing, you throw it through the downswing and you try to flick or lock and unlock the wrists as you hit the ball.
* Weak grip. Women often have tendonitis if the grip is weak. This is because the tendons work harder to keep the wrist steady during the swing.
2) Ulnar-Carpal (wrist) joint injuries. The ulnar bone is the long bone of your arm that starts at the point of your elbow and ends where the 5th finger is on the hand. The ulna is slightly raised at the wrist and you can feel it. There is a ligament you can feel, like a band between the ulna and the bones of the wrist. This is called the TFCC (triangular fibro-cartilagenous complex). It is the link between the forearm and wrist at this point. If it is strained from overswinging or from grounding the club forcefully, you can tear or overstretch this ligament causing pain most especially when you roll your wrists. As long as your wrists are locked when you hold a club, it doesn’t hurt but once you swing the club, the TFCC presents with pain. Another thing you will notice is that when you rotate your forearm from a palm down position, the small bone (the ulna) pops up and becomes more prominent than on the other side.
Most women and beginner golfers have not yet developed adequate forearm power and thus have weaker wrists and grip strengths. Many beginners are taught to hold the clubs in more neutral positions and if they do not understand the concept of “grip strength” or how hard to hold the club, the wrists will break through the course of the swing. This is the basic underlying problem in the grip that causes injury.
Why?:
* If the grip is weak, there is adequate control of the club and as the club flaps around, the wrists are under a lot of strain.
* Stronger grips lock the wrists and neutral grips only work if proper grip strength is applied.
* In an attempt to get more power and distance, there is a conscious attempt to hinge or cock the wrist and then rapidly uncock them through impact. This is the “misconception” of the delayed hit. What delivers the speed at impact is not a delayed uncocking but an acceleration by a quick rolling of the forearms at impact.
* People try to break this down into components. The mistake is that all of these parts should come together in one complete motion.
Knowing your pain and keeping it away
Whenever you get this type of pain, no matter what you do, you cannot play through the pain. It is important to rest the wrist. Apply ice on the pain area and, if the pain is really bad, benefit from wearing a wrist brace or splint. Pain relievers such as anti-inflammatory tablets or topical creams can give immediate relief. If the pain persists, then you may need to have treatment in the form of physical therapy, ultrasound, or paraffin. You should see a doctor, preferably an orthopedic surgeon but more specifically, one who understands the golf swing. The reason for this is that, resting the wrist and therapy will relieve the pain but if you go back to your old swing habits, then it will only be a matter of time before the pain comes back. Your doctor should be able to identify what your problem is and help you with it. Personally, I have a shortened club in my clinic and I ask the golfer to grip and go through the motions of the swing so I can identify the flaws.
Many fitness professionals prescribe wrist flexion and extension exercises in golf training programs. This is wrong due to a poor understanding of the golf swing. During the golf swing, there should be very little through range wrist movement except in the thumb up to thumb down positions. All programs should aim to provide symmetry and a smooth transition from thumbs up to thumbs down to create good rolling of the forearms. Strengthening does not need to work on bringing the wrist up and down with weights but should focus on grip strength and left versus right balance. If no assessment has been done and your program includes these exercises, seek advice from a golf-trained physiotherapist or a knowledgeable coach.

[jambalaya]

Re: Grip and position at top....

Jamb,

In the video he is showing you what happens to the clubface which is very similar to what happens to your wrists. When you allow this to happen in the swing the right elbow folds into your side and as the wrist turns back you will be in a waiter and tray position.

Regarding the wrist break: The wrists will already be cocked around 45 degrees, at address your wrists will not be straight. Try this: Take a club and address a ball, now release the grip with your right hand letting your arm hang naturally, rotate your right hand 90 degrees right so your palm is pointing away from you, now see how far you can break your wrist to the right. It will be little or nothing. In my humble opinion there tends to be too much emphasis placed on the wrist break, most of the power in the release is created by bringing the clubface from its open position to one that is square to target.

I hope this makes some sense to you.

Yeah, that makes sense. Seems a much better way of thinking of the role of the right arm and wrist in keeping the club on plane than I realized before. Thanks.

[Avid Golfer]

Re: Grip and position at top....

This video explains nicely the action of the wrists and the relation to the clubface through the back and downswings:

http://www.golftipsmag.com/video/ins...ing-hoops.html

I don't believe I have ever seen a professional golfer jut his/her elbow out in the early part of the backswing like the instructor, Jeff Riters, in that video is recommending people do. I've seen another instructor,Robert Baker, use a hula-hoop to demonstrate swing plane, arm motion, and wrist action in a DVD called Logical Golf. I find Baker's explanation and example more logical than Riters.

You can find some of Baker's explanations and hula-hoop examples at the link below:
http://www.logicalgolf.com/tips.php?act=tip&id=48
(Baker worked briefly with Els, Ballesteros, Faldo, Price, and Greg Norman for whatever that's worth.)