Wrist Cock...Again.....Sorry....

[Macca_NZ]

Hi

Regarding wrist cock I have two distinct questions which I would be very interested in responses to by others. Particulary question 1.


1) Do SOME players (even pros) successfully cock their wrists in a fashion DIFFERENT to the pure "up down" fashion shown in the right hand drill and lots of other forms of modern swing instruction???




2) The reason that there is SO MUCH CONFUSION regarding wrist cock is that ultimately due to the position on the club of each hand being slightly different you will naturally NEVER have a pure "up down", "side to side", or "rotation" of the wirsts in a repeatable action with power - (regardless of which you think is preferred anyway). There will be an "aspect" of "rotation" or "side to side" movement even present in a player who strictly aims to use the "up down" cocking action very well?


Is my comment in 2) accurate or rubbish?


I have for the last year or so since seeing Gregs drill and other pieces of advice used the "up and down" approach as the way i try to set my club going back. I think I have taken this too far and now its my problem.

By trying to let my hands have the "feeling" of "side to side" cocking initially I am getting great results and striking it well.

I only tried this becasue of the comment Brian made that Nick Faldo says the correct type of wrist movement is the "waiter holding a tray" type as opposed to the up and down.

I was very surprised to read this as I thought that was the EXACT OPPOSITE of what we should be trying. Anyway having tried the Faldo (Brian) advice I have had very good results. So I want to check whether this is OK - or if is am simply just currently timing very well an aspect of the swing which will be long term fraught with inconsistecy?

Thanks in advance for the responses and sorry for bringing the Wrist-Cock thing up again...............

[BrianW]

Re: Wrist Cock...Again.....Sorry....

Hi,

You will probably have seen my recent post "Wrist Cock?????" where I have suggested that the up and down cocking of the wrists does not create power in the swing and in some cases where this hinge is large the club is moved off plane by a large amount. It did get a little sidetracked with wrist rotation though.

I am still unconvinced that up and down hinging adds anything much to the swing. I do think that taking the clubface from an open position into impact through to a closed position after impact does add power though. The wrists have to rotate open as they move towards the top of the backswing and close to square as they reach impact, otherwise the clubface will move outside the swing plane and will loose lag creating a weak hit.

Greg's RH drill does preset the wrists and relies on more on rotational forces from the hips and shoulders to bring the clubface back square, this works but in my case I don't like having to rotate my shoulders and torso this much at impact, it makes me slide ahead of the ball and push the ball out right.

This video clip that I have posted before gives a very nice explanation of how the clubface needs to be in relation to the swingplane and shows how rotation is used in the back and downswings.

http://www.golftipsmag.com/video/ins...ing-hoops.html

[Macca_NZ]

Re: Wrist Cock...Again.....Sorry....

Hi Brian

Thanks for the reply.

I have seent that video. i find it strange how at a mid point in the swing he completely changes the relationship between his hand and the hoop from perpendicular to the hoop to parallel.

Its not a gradual change its one and then the other.

Would you agree with the my question in 1)? I'm guess ing from your comment re up and down you do? That there are some players who do weel without the pure up and down wrist cock?

Cheers

[Avid Golfer]

Re: Wrist Cock...Again.....Sorry....

Hi

Regarding wrist cock I have two distinct questions which I would be very interested in responses to by others. Particulary question 1.

1) Do SOME players (even pros) successfully cock their wrists in a fashion DIFFERENT to the pure "up down" fashion shown in the right hand drill and lots of other forms of modern swing instruction???

2) The reason that there is SO MUCH CONFUSION regarding wrist cock is that ultimately due to the position on the club of each hand being slightly different you will naturally NEVER have a pure "up down", "side to side", or "rotation" of the wirsts in a repeatable action with power - (regardless of which you think is preferred anyway). There will be an "aspect" of "rotation" or "side to side" movement even present in a player who strictly aims to use the "up down" cocking action very well?

By trying to let my hands have the "feeling" of "side to side" cocking initially I am getting great results and striking it well.

I only tried this becasue of the comment Brian made that Nick Faldo says the correct type of wrist movement is the "waiter holding a tray" type as opposed to the up and down.

I was very surprised to read this as I thought that was the EXACT OPPOSITE of what we should be trying. Anyway having tried the Faldo (Brian) advice I have had very good results. So I want to check whether this is OK - or if is am simply just currently timing very well an aspect of the swing which will be long term fraught with inconsistecy?

Thanks in advance for the responses and sorry for bringing the Wrist-Cock thing up again...............

Actually I believe I am the one who advocated the side ways wrist hinge, and made reference to Faldo.

http://www.golf-tuition-online.com/10549942-post3.html
http://www.golf-tuition-online.com/10549975-post8.html

In response to your first question. Yes there are a decent amount of tour pros who use the wrist hinge (and not the up and down motion). Among the players that the move is apparent in video and pictures is Nick Faldo, Ernie Els, and Charles Howell III.

The up and down (wrist cock) motion might be useful if you were trying to smack down directly on something (like hammer a tee in the ground), but it is not an ideal movement when you are trying to make contact with an item like a ball that is on a tilted plane. (You want a shallow thin divot, not a deep gouge that the up and down movement promotes). If you are focused on an up and down motion what is going to get you into the hinged back position we see the pros achieving when their hands near hip high on the downswing?

The folding back wrist hinge is more ideal for swinging and attacking the ball from a shallow direction that will return the shaft close to its address position. The hinged style of wrist movement also promotes swinging the club back on the same plane it was on at address, a parallel position with the arms at the top, and a return close to the original plane at impact.

See the images of Faldo and Howell I have linked below to see the wrist hinge I advocate, and how it helps promote the rotational swing you see in the modern swing of many of todays pros.

(Faldo Swing)
http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/4...ngplanesb1.jpg

(Howell Swing)
http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/1...ngplanenb2.jpg

With regards to your second question: I belive that the reason why there is confusion regarding wrist hinge/cock are multiple. First, the face on view of the golfswing blocks the view of the right hand and wrist once a golfer reaches hip high, and the illusion is presented that the left hand and wrist are responsible for the position we see there. Second, because the club becomes elevated people believe that it has to be the result of an up and down motion (which is not true), and they believe that either the hands or the arms are responsible for the up and down movement they think exists. Third, beginners find up and down easy concepts to understand, and so they are told that as they begin playing. Fourth, since people spread around that mistaken idea that there needs to be a vertical motion to get to the top of the swing the vertical wrist cock has become a popular myth.

One other thing of note. In question two you made reference to the hands being in different postions. While one may be positioned further down on the grip/shaft than the other (which promotes shoulder tilt away from the target) you will find most good instructors and players will advocate that the palms be parallel to one another when you hold the club. Parallel palms help both of the wrists and arms to work togther. If the palms and hands are in drastically different positions they would each promote a different type of movement, and they would fight each other for control of the swing. A strong grip (with the left hand on top and the right underneath) promotes forearm rotation and a swing more around and behind you. A weak grip (with the left hand more underneath and the right hand on top of the club) promotes less forearm rotation and the club swinging more in front of the body. If one hand is in a strong position and the other a weak position which one is going to win control of how and where the arms and clubs swing?

[jambalaya]

Re: Wrist Cock...Again.....Sorry....

Hi Brian

Thanks for the reply.

I have seent that video. i find it strange how at a mid point in the swing he completely changes the relationship between his hand and the hoop from perpendicular to the hoop to parallel.

Its not a gradual change its one and then the other.

Would you agree with the my question in 1)? I'm guess ing from your comment re up and down you do? That there are some players who do weel without the pure up and down wrist cock?

Cheers

The up and down cock is not a really large motion. Just a little cock. I was like you over doing it and that would cause trouble. But it seems to make a difference with lag and clubhead speed.

Yeah, I was kind of wondering about the changing hand position but it makes sense. Try to bring your hands up to the top without rotating them as he suggests. I cannot do it unless I let my right elbow stick up and get away from my body. He doesn't make a gradual change on the video but in reality I think that is what you should do.

How much power the up and down cock produces I don't know. I think really the up and down motion goes hand in hand with the backwards cupping of the right wrist because the two wrists a little offset, not really facing each other completely.

Imagine your hands at the top of your backswing as the video suggested parallel to the hoop or swing plane. Releasing the cock in the wrist as it follows the hoop does impart some force when the hands are not perpindicular to the hoop. It is simple dynamics. The force down the plane of the hoop has an X and Y component. One force, the downward and Y component doesn't add much to launch the ball but the X component releases a force that propels the club head forward.

Any way, I do feel i get more compression on the ball when I connect properly and know I have a good up and down cock. But is also seems like overdoing it will throw things off for me.

[Macca_NZ]

Re: Wrist Cock...Again.....Sorry....

Thanks for the response Avid!!

Very helpful.

I'll concentrate on the right wrist into the waiters tray position for the next few weeks and see if it helps like it seems to be currently.

Certainly the up/down to the extent i am doing it is not working when combined with the remainder of my swing.

Cheers

[BrianW]

Re: Wrist Cock...Again.....Sorry....

Actually I believe I am the one who advocated the side ways wrist hinge, and made reference to Faldo.

http://www.golf-tuition-online.com/10549942-post3.html
http://www.golf-tuition-online.com/10549975-post8.html

In response to your first question. Yes there are a decent amount of tour pros who use the wrist hinge (and not the up and down motion). Among the players that the move is apparent in video and pictures is Nick Faldo, Ernie Els, and Charles Howell III.

The up and down (wrist cock) motion might be useful if you were trying to smack down directly on something (like hammer a tee in the ground), but it is not an ideal movement when you are trying to make contact with an item like a ball that is on a tilted plane. (You want a shallow thin divot, not a deep gouge that the up and down movement promotes). If you are focused on an up and down motion what is going to get you into the hinged back position we see the pros achieving when their hands near hip high on the downswing?

The folding back wrist hinge is more ideal for swinging and attacking the ball from a shallow direction that will return the shaft close to its address position. The hinged style of wrist movement also promotes swinging the club back on the same plane it was on at address, a parallel position with the arms at the top, and a return close to the original plane at impact.

See the images of Faldo and Howell I have linked below to see the wrist hinge I advocate, and how it helps promote the rotational swing you see in the modern swing of many of todays pros.

(Faldo Swing)
http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/4...ngplanesb1.jpg

(Howell Swing)
http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/1...ngplanenb2.jpg

With regards to your second question: I belive that the reason why there is confusion regarding wrist hinge/cock are multiple. First, the face on view of the golfswing blocks the view of the right hand and wrist once a golfer reaches hip high, and the illusion is presented that the left hand and wrist are responsible for the position we see there. Second, because the club becomes elevated people believe that it has to be the result of an up and down motion (which is not true), and they believe that either the hands or the arms are responsible for the up and down movement they think exists. Third, beginners find up and down easy concepts to understand, and so they are told that as they begin playing. Fourth, since people spread around that mistaken idea that there needs to be a vertical motion to get to the top of the swing the vertical wrist cock has become a popular myth.

One other thing of note. In question two you made reference to the hands being in different postions. While one may be positioned further down on the grip/shaft than the other (which promotes shoulder tilt away from the target) you will find most good instructors and players will advocate that the palms be parallel to one another when you hold the club. Parallel palms help both of the wrists and arms to work togther. If the palms and hands are in drastically different positions they would each promote a different type of movement, and they would fight each other for control of the swing. A strong grip (with the left hand on top and the right underneath) promotes forearm rotation and a swing more around and behind you. A weak grip (with the left hand more underneath and the right hand on top of the club) promotes less forearm rotation and the club swinging more in front of the body. If one hand is in a strong position and the other a weak position which one is going to win control of how and where the arms and clubs swing?

Avid,

That's a very good post.

[prowlsta]

Re: Wrist Cock...Again.....Sorry....

Sorry if Im changing the topic at all but was wondering how wrist cock should effect the short game. I get really confused about when the chipping stroke ie minimal wrist hinge should turn into a pitch where the wrists do hinge?

[Avid Golfer]

Re: Wrist Cock...Again.....Sorry....

Sorry if Im changing the topic at all but was wondering how wrist cock should effect the short game. I get really confused about when the chipping stroke ie minimal wrist hinge should turn into a pitch where the wrists do hinge?

Chipping is such a small stroke (like putting) that you want to minimize extra movement to increase accuracy. With chipping you are keeping the ball low to the ground and desire a shot that is mostly roll. If you cock your wrists you will add clubhead speed, and that will in turn add backspin which will elevate the ball (making it fly higher and farther than you may intend).

With pitch shots you want mostly carry with litte to no roll. Using the wrists along with clubhead loft will help put backspin on the ball to elevate it and stop it quickly on landing.

[prowlsta]

Re: Wrist Cock...Again.....Sorry....

Thanks - I guess what Im asking is when does a chip become a pitch. Its the inbetween shots I struggle with. Im fine hitting a 60yd sand wedge/lob wedge and Im flying playing chip and runs when Im within 5 yds of the green.
The shots Im struggling with are the ones where Ive got 10- 20yds of fairway/rough before the green then another 10yds of green? I nevrer know whether to check the wrists solid and hitting a solid chip or hinging the wrists and pitching - to be honest I dont feel in control of either!

[BrianW]

Re: Wrist Cock...Again.....Sorry....

Thanks - I guess what Im asking is when does a chip become a pitch. Its the inbetween shots I struggle with. Im fine hitting a 60yd sand wedge/lob wedge and Im flying playing chip and runs when Im within 5 yds of the green.
The shots Im struggling with are the ones where Ive got 10- 20yds of fairway/rough before the green then another 10yds of green? I nevrer know whether to check the wrists solid and hitting a solid chip or hinging the wrists and pitching - to be honest I dont feel in control of either!

The only difference is the height of carry and amount of run at 10/20 yards you can chip or pitch the ball depending on whether you want it to check or roll. A chip should be aiming at landing the ball just onto the green and letting it roll out, a pitch would aim at landing nearer the pin and check. The choice often is made for you if there is a bunker or water between you and the hole.

[Avid Golfer]

Re: Wrist Cock...Again.....Sorry....

Thanks - I guess what Im asking is when does a chip become a pitch. Its the inbetween shots I struggle with. Im fine hitting a 60yd sand wedge/lob wedge and Im flying playing chip and runs when Im within 5 yds of the green.
The shots Im struggling with are the ones where Ive got 10- 20yds of fairway/rough before the green then another 10yds of green? I nevrer know whether to check the wrists solid and hitting a solid chip or hinging the wrists and pitching - to be honest I dont feel in control of either!

It is a difficult question to answer as a lot of it depends on your preferences, and which shot you are more comfortable with executing. Phil Mickelson for example tends to prefer mostly carry with very litte roll around the green. (In his chip shots he actually sets his wrists on the backswing to add backspin to the shot).

My feeling is if the green is heavily contoured (especially in front of you where you want to land the ball), or you have a large amount of rough in front of you (like you said 20 yards) then I would use the pitch shot.

The type of grass on the course (and if you have played the course before) is important to factor in as well. With some types of grasses the ball will pop out higher, and stop quicker on impact. If you're playing a course with sticky grass, or large blades of grass then the ball will stop quicker, and a pitch would be prefered. Like wise if you are playing on a course you have never played before then the pitch shot would probably be the better option since you will not know how much the ball will release on landing.

If the grass is softer, with smaller blades, and the landing area in front of you is flat then a chip might be the better shot. If you know the course well, and you're a good putter on its greens then the chip might also be the better choice. With a chipshot you have less moving parts, so it may be easier to produce consistancy.

If you're out playing, you don't have any groups waiting behind you, your playing partners don't mind (if you're playing with others), and you aren't playing in a tournament or for money, and your practice area isn't a good representation of the areas around the greens drop a second ball in a few of the spots you are unsure about and hit both a pitch and a chip. Which got closer, and which was easier to execute?

Like Greg Norman once said if you are unsure how to play a shot, or you lack confidence spend an hour or two working on nothing but short game shots, and by the end of that hour or two you will have a good idea how to play a variety of shots, and you'll have confidence in your ability to execute the shots.

While on the topic of Greg Norman and the short game you may find these tips useful:
http://www.shark.com/sharkwatch/inst...n/lesson36.php
http://www.shark.com/sharkwatch/inst...n/lesson43.php
http://www.shark.com/sharkwatch/inst...n/lesson38.php
http://www.shark.com/sharkwatch/inst...n/lesson41.php
http://www.shark.com/sharkwatch/inst...n/lesson42.php

[Rackster]

Re: Wrist Cock...Again.....Sorry....

Avid, some very good posts here.

I to have Nick Faldo's book "Golf: The Winning Formula". I also have Nick's second book "A Swing for Life" and I don't think it has the technical precision as the "Winning Formula". I think Nick could have gone into the wrists a lot more in "Swing for Life". In fact I would love Nick to do an article on the wrist action in a magazine. I have e-mailed his website to see if he can get an instruction article on the site, but they point to his current writing commitments in golf world.

This is one article I have found from Nick which has an element of wrist action to it.


http://www.golftoday.co.uk/proshop/f...in_a_ride.html

I think Nicks key to his swing is the early wrist hinge which allows the hinge he recommends. With the article though, Nick's thought is "Thumbs up", which seems a contradiction to what he said in "Winning Formula"- am I right on this?

[Rackster]

Re: Wrist Cock...Again.....Sorry....

Avid, some very good posts here.

I to have Nick Faldo's book "Golf: The Winning Formula". I also have Nick's second book "A Swing for Life" and I don't think it has the technical precision as the "Winning Formula". I think Nick could have gone into the wrists a lot more in "Swing for Life". In fact I would love Nick to do an article on the wrist action in a magazine. I have e-mailed his website to see if he can get an instruction article on the site, but they point to his current writing commitments in golf world.

This is one article I have found from Nick which has an element of wrist action to it.


http://www.golftoday.co.uk/proshop/f...in_a_ride.html

I think Nicks key to his swing is the early wrist hinge which allows the hinge he recommends. With the article though, Nick's thought is "Thumbs up", which seems a contradiction to what he said in "Winning Formula"- am I right on this?

[Avid Golfer]

Re: Wrist Cock...Again.....Sorry....

Avid, some very good posts here.

I to have Nick Faldo's book "Golf: The Winning Formula". I also have Nick's second book "A Swing for Life" and I don't think it has the technical precision as the "Winning Formula". I think Nick could have gone into the wrists a lot more in "Swing for Life". In fact I would love Nick to do an article on the wrist action in a magazine. I have e-mailed his website to see if he can get an instruction article on the site, but they point to his current writing commitments in golf world.

This is one article I have found from Nick which has an element of wrist action to it.


http://www.golftoday.co.uk/proshop/f...in_a_ride.html

I think Nicks key to his swing is the early wrist hinge which allows the hinge he recommends. With the article though, Nick's thought is "Thumbs up", which seems a contradiction to what he said in "Winning Formula"- am I right on this?

In his Winning Formula he makes reference to both advanced thoughts for the better golfer, and simpler thoughts for the average or beginning golfer. The wrist hinge is in the section about his swing, and thoughts for the advanced golfer. In the lessons for the average golfer section he promotes the thumbs up thought process.

My guess is that in Swing for Life (which doesn't have advanced sections), and the article you linked to he is writing to readers he considers in the average or beginning stages. Either that or he forgot about his wrist hinge thought(s) (he still has the wrist hinge in video and pictures).