Seniors, distance with your clubs.

[buteman]

I compared the average distance I achieve now to what I did twenty five years ago and it's quite significant but I don't understand why it's only with the irons.
As an example under normal conditions ( 25 years ago ) on the par 3 17th. hole at our club I regularly used a 5 iron, the hole played 184 yds. I had Titelist irons, stiff shaft, and used Titelist 90's that 5 iron was the perfect club for that distance.
I was never a long ball hitter but had no problem getting it out there and I was pretty good when it came to accuracy with my woods. I actually hit the ball just as far with my woods these days as I did in the past, I credit the technology in heads, shafts and balls for that.
To get back to the irons, I now average 165 yards with my 5 iron, going through my irons I've lost about 15-20 yards per club ( 4 through 8 ).
Prior to playing one day I was at the practice range with my playing partners, I tried a few balls with a Ping 5 iron, a Mizuno 5 iron ( both with stiff shafts ). I then hit my 5 iron and there was no difference at all, the balls were all within a yard or two.
I carry three hybrids ( 14, 20, 23 degree ) which I hit pretty solid, any other senior out there who have experienced similar ?

[bill reed]

Re: Seniors, distance with your clubs.

hi
last year i remember Gary Player saying he was hitting the ball longer now at 73 years old then when he was in his 30s and he put it down to then new golf shaft and the ball flying longer. Bernard Langer also said he was longer now( he's 50!) than when he was at the top of his game, i do think the older you get the softer the shaft you have to use, Lowpost will know more than i do about shafts but you can find more yards in later life with a softer shaft.
cheers
bill

[LowPost42]

Re: Seniors, distance with your clubs.

Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrreeeeeeeeeeeee eeeee's LowPost!


The reason why you're hitting your 5 iron from the 80's the same distance you're hitting your 5 iron from the 00's the same reason is that the loft on the two are not the same. the loft on your '80s 5 iron is the same as the loft on your 7 or 8 iron today.

Don't believe me?

You can either dig up your old clubs (or find a buddy that just never got rid of theirs) and hit the 5i side by side, or simply take them to your local clubmaker to have the lofts checked. I'll wager that there's 6° of seperation, or more.

[bill reed]

Re: Seniors, distance with your clubs.

hi lowpost
the Ping K1 5 iron from the 80s i have is 28.5%
the Ping Zing 5 iron from the late 90s i have is 27%
the new Ping 5 irons from 2008 still have 27%
like you said Lowpost in the start of the 90s all club makers took loft off there clubs so they could say they went longer.
Lowpost
would you think softer shafs help the older golfer ???
thanks again
bill

[Martin Levac]

Re: Seniors, distance with your clubs.

The trend is lower loft for the number on the club. A link:

http://www.leaderboard.com/LOFTINFO.htm

Concerning shaft rigidity. Rigidity plays a role in precision and feedback. It goes not give any benefit in power or speed or distance. The power we put in is the power we get out of it. Rigid means more precision and more feedback. Flexible means less precision and less feedback.

[bill reed]

Re: Seniors, distance with your clubs.

hi Martin
if you give a player with a swing speed of 90mph a club with a extra still shaft they will have more control of the ball but will lose some distance too and the wont be able to put the felx into the shaft of the club, if you then have them hit the same head but in a reg shaft flex then they will get that flex and often hit longer with less effort, it getting the right shaft for your swing speed and matching them to get the best out your swing.
it a bit like a 6% driver if you swing with a 90mph you wont get the spin to lift the ball hight enough, if you use a 10.5% driver with the same shaft you will get more spin and the ball will stay in the air longer too and will go longer.
if you have 120mph then the 6% driver will put more backspin on the ball than hit with a 90mph swing.
cheers
bill

[Martin Levac]

Re: Seniors, distance with your clubs.

hi Martin
if you give a player with a swing speed of 90mph a club with a extra still shaft they will have more control of the ball but will lose some distance too and the wont be able to put the felx into the shaft of the club, if you then have them hit the same head but in a reg shaft flex then they will get that flex and often hit longer with less effort, it getting the right shaft for your swing speed and matching them to get the best out your swing.
it a bit like a 6% driver if you swing with a 90mph you wont get the spin to lift the ball hight enough, if you use a 10.5% driver with the same shaft you will get more spin and the ball will stay in the air longer too and will go longer.
if you have 120mph then the 6% driver will put more backspin on the ball than hit with a 90mph swing.
cheers
bill

It's all about launch conditions. Launch conditions are speed, spin, launch angle.

Lose distance: Only if launch conditions deteriorate.

Gain distance: Only if launch conditions ameliorate.

More distance with less effort: Only if launch conditions ameliorate.

Rigid shaft means more precision. The precision is good to strike the ball properly so we transmit more momentum to it so it launches faster. Flexible shaft means less precision. The lower precision means we don't strike the ball as precisely so we don't transmit as much momentum so it launches a little slower. In effect, a flexible shaft deteriorates launch conditions.

[bruin]

Re: Seniors, distance with your clubs.

martin, if you ar right , then why do manufacturers make different shafts, surely they would just make stiff shafts.
i tried various clubs out last year and could not hit a stiff shafted 5 iron anywhere near the the distance i got with a lite flex , that i eventually settled on. hitting a 7 iron about 155yards(at least i was in the summer)a bit less now the cold damp winter is here.
would like lowposts view on this , i think bill is right.

[bill reed]

Re: Seniors, distance with your clubs.

hi Martin
lanch angle also has to do with the shaft, if we talk about the driver the club head is ahead of the shaft at impact due to it flexing and if it the right flex for that golfer swing speed, if the shaft is to x-stiff then they will get a lower ball flight and also lose distant. whit the driver when you are on your downswing there is some backword flex to the shaft but it not there long and it when your wrist start to uncock then the club head starts to traval faster that the hands and it gets ahead of the shaft at impact. the makers build this into the loft of the club and the use of the right shaft to get the right launch angle.
if you only swing with a 90mph as most hight handicap players do the stiff shaft in there driver might help put it on the fairway but as they dont have the power to flex the shaft at impact then they lose loft and spin.
having a shaft and driver with the right loft will give the player better results. with older playes most lose speed of swing with age and softer shaft can help, i would not recomend to a 60 year old with reg shaft to go and get stiffer shafts but he might bet better with a softer shaft.
cheers
bill

[Martin Levac]

Re: Seniors, distance with your clubs.

I'm sorry that I could not explain it properly. I will try again.

If the shaft ameliorates launch conditions, the ball will fly farther.

If the shaft deteriorates launch conditions, the ball will fly shorter.

[bill reed]

Re: Seniors, distance with your clubs.

Hi Martin
i dont get what you mean sorry.
most shaft makers make there shafts in say a (reg-flex) then you could get a low, med or high. what the does is it changed the ball flight and the only way it can do the if to change the loft on the club face and it does it with where on the shaft it flexes but the club head is always before the shaft at inpact.
you can have youe x-still shaft but change the hight the ball flys but what x-shaft you fit, ie high, med or low.
cheers
bill

[LowPost42]

Re: Seniors, distance with your clubs.

Man, I take the morning off to go into the city...

Shaft plays a role. A very, very small role in launch conditions. Tip flexibility is this role.

Release point of the club plays a larger role - release early, and it doesn't matter how the tip flexes - it's all done bending by impact and doesn't do a thing. This is the reason most amateurs never, ever see a difference no matter what shaft they use - they don't swing properly to allow any dynamic movement of the clubhead (shaft tip) through impact.

I'm coming to the realisation that players should be playing the stiffest shaft they can handle the feel of. Stiffer shafts give more consistent results, but tend to feel much harsher than softer shafts. I've seen this in my own trials - even with chipping, using the same heads and shaft model, chips with the softer flex feel better than with the firmer flex. However, time and again dispersion and trajectory are more consistent with the firmer flex.

So to answer Bill's first question - I think a softer tipped shaft may very well help an older golfer who's lost swingspeed, but still retains good mechanics - ie a mid-late or late release. But we're discussing a handful of yards per club, nothing extravagant. Generally speaking what will help the older player find more distance is a lightweight shaft so that he can swing it faster. Assuming it's not too light (and feel is lost) then the benefit is there.

@Bruin: There are so many different types of shafts because millions of golfers are looking for millions of things. Especially at the higher levels, golfers become very particular about the bending feel in their clubs. So since shaft A bends diffferently from shaft B which bends differently from both shafts A and C, we have something that can ideally fit the feel that the golfer is looking for.

So, lets not get too caught up here with what our shafts say.

First, we need to make sure we've got a mid-late or late release, otherwise we're generally arguing semantics (don't get me wrong, there are some funky swings out there with early releases that do weird things with hands through impact that can simulate a late release, but by and large an early to mid releasing golfer doesn't need to worry about bending. Find a shaft weight you like in a flex you can handle the feel of - regardless of how old you are.)

So with our late-releasing golfer, you can do some really interesting things.

You can go with a softer tipped shaft and a little less loft to achieve the same launch angle. You can go with more loft and a firmer tip to get the same LA. Or you can go with a mid tip and find an appropriate loft.

But here's my opinion:

What's your ideal driver? It's the one that, when you hit it pure, it goes the farthest. So, if you nut it, the LA and spin numbers are as close to perfect as you can get them. But if you mis-hit it at all, the spin won't be there and the shot loses easily 10% of your potential distance.

How would I build this driver to maximise my chances of nutting shots?

I would find the stiffest tipped shaft I could find in a weight that matched up with my swing, and the loft that complemented my launch angle. Why? It minimises the effect of dynamic bending through impact, offering me the most forgiveness when playing the least forgiving (but most rewarding) driver.

Long story short, Martin is more or less right. It's the launch conditions that dictate distance; and the shaft will not make the most difference: Loft will.

Now, if your loft is fixed (like for your 5 iron) then yes, we need to tweak the shaft to maximise distance. But if you're picking up 10 yards over your current 5 iron, physics says it can't all be the shaft (unless your current 5 iron is fully, completely and totally wrong for you).

[bill reed]

Re: Seniors, distance with your clubs.

hi lowpost
thanks for that great reply.
i was not trying to say get a softer flex to get more distance i was meaning get a softer flex to stop you losing distance as your swing slows with age.
thanks
bill.

[LowPost42]

Re: Seniors, distance with your clubs.

hi lowpost
thanks for that great reply.
i was not trying to say get a softer flex to get more distance i was meaning get a softer flex to stop you losing distance as your swing slows with age.
thanks
bill.

I'll say a 'yes' with qualifiers -> go with a softer tip section provided you have a mid-late to late release. The reason being is the more active tip will add some loft and spin, which is helpful with a slower swing speed.

[buteman]

Re: Seniors, distance with your clubs.

I thank you for your input, generous information indeed although ( begging your pardon ) I found it a wee bit confusing. Three of us were at the indoor facility yesterday playing " The Old Course " on the simulator, I was chatting to the clubmaker and he checked the loft on our respective 5 irons. My Nickent was 27, Andy's Callaway Steel was 28 and Trevor's new Mizuno 5 iron was 27.5 not a heck of a lot in it at all.
At my stage in life ( I'm 62 ) I accept what I have in the way of golf skills, and, to be honest I'm very grateful for what I have. I have no doubt that come late Spring I will be playing off around an eight handicap at my new club. On a reasonable day I will score in the mid to high seventies, the mechanics of my swing are fairly sound, once the snow leaves I will be working my buns off on my short game.
I use all Nickent equipment, I could throw them in the midden and go out and spend $ 3000.00 on new top of the line clubs but I have absolutely no doubt at all that they will be no better ( or worse ) than my trusty Nickent clubs. Again thanks for your input. Buteman.