the set-up, Moe vs the Pros

[AvidGolfer]

Re: the set-up, Moe vs the Pros

There has got to be rotation to create power, like a top spin shot in table tennis....!!

You must remember the human body and brain is capable of repeating the most complex of movements even rotationg the hands/arms at 100mph.

How quickly does your eye close if something blows into it, thats how quick you can react.

Ian.

First, the so called top spin shot in table tennis does not add speed it simply redirects it. The ball is redirected to dive sharply into the table. In golf you do not want the ball diving sharply into the ground (that type of action kills momentum, distance, and can plug or cover the ball in mud). Both the tools used, and the games themselves are extremely different (golf and table tennis), so trying to draw parallels between them is a futile endeavor.

Second the blinking of the eyes is a motor movement that animals start to do before they are born and most of the time aren't even consciously aware of doing. In addition the eyes are extremely close (physically) to the brain, and commands don't need to travel past and though tons of other body parts to reach its destination.

Third, and finally, in the golf swing with physics and related principles at work (gravity, centripetal force, kinesthetics, newtons law(s), etc) it is ludicrous to think that additional power could be added (like discussed by others it would be redirected left or right) let alone controlled with any precision.

[BrianW]

Re: the set-up, Moe vs the Pros

I thought I had finished but I guess there is a little more to add.

It is evident that there are and probably will be differing views on the subject and the best would be for all to accept that.

In support of Ian I played squash for many years at a competitive level and any good player will understand that to hit the ball with power you must rotate the racquet from open to closed by rotation of your forarm and wrist as it hits through the ball, otherwise you will create a weak hit and this does not redirect the force. I am not sure and have not spent suitable time studying the physics of this but it seems that the operation transfers force more effectively into the ball, I think this is what happens when the same action is used in the golf swing. People like Joe Hagen of 3 skills and AJ Bonar promote this action to boost power and I cannot see that they are both trying to hoodwink us.

I have tried the method in 3 skills and have benefited by the improved power and quality of ball strike as have many more on and off this forum. If others believe it's all hokum then good for them, I guess we will just carry on playing our improved golf all the same

[bill reed]

Re: the set-up, Moe vs the Pros

hi Brian
i remember tests done on the AG Bonner "little home run" and there results were that if strike was perfect then it could add 10 yards to a drive but on most shots only gave 3 to 4 yards more than a drive with the square to square through impact. so there was some gain but not a really big gain on most shots and there was no real difference with shots using the 7,8,9 irons.
so i think your right in saying it does give you more power but it don't add much to the overall distance of say a drive. it added that some pros like tiger and Vg Sing could gain as much as 20 yards on driving a ball using the open, square, closed system.
i found it very hard to use AG Bonner's system but that don't mean it don't work for others.
cheers
bill

[Ian Hancock]

Re: the set-up, Moe vs the Pros

Thats a strong difference of opinion...........!!

If you placed a net across the fairway at 150yds like a giant table tennis table, which is most powerful shot to hit over that net the one that goes left to right with reverse spin a Fade that flies higher and lands softer? or the one with top spin exactly the same as table tennis that curves right to left a draw?

Furthermore the one with Top Spin rolls alot more on landing because it is spinning in a forward momentum thus a lower flight.

In my opinion it is exactly the same but a lot larger scale.


Ian.

[BrianW]

Re: the set-up, Moe vs the Pros

Some threads on this forum are started as a debate where someone makes a statement then asks others for their comments or thoughts. Others are golfers that have a problem with their game or are seeking advice.

What I find mildly irritating is when someone is asking for help, members give their advice freely and with good intent then others wade in criticising the advice given. It would be more helpful in these cases if these people simply stated their own opinions unless asked otherwise and let the OP decide what will help them. There is always room for polite debate but I do not like the use of aggressive or supercilious discussion forcing people into unnecessary defensive stances.

I do not position myself as completely lilly white here but for the sake of keeping this site one of the better quality golf forums I will make more of an effort in future, I hope some others will also.

[Ian Hancock]

Re: the set-up, Moe vs the Pros

Dito Brian,

You noticed I was a little 'put out' this morning then....!!

Thanks

Ian.

[bill reed]

Re: the set-up, Moe vs the Pros

hi Ian
i don't see how you idea of top spin works, when you his a fade the ball flies high and lands soft, with a draw it flies lower and that why it runs more. when you first hit the ball it backspin that makes the ball clime and stay in the air and it when the ball reaches the top of it flight that the side spin takes over from the back spin and the ball fades or draws. when you hit a fade the ball don't fade right away it only does when at the top of it flight.
i don't see how it can ever have top spin.
maybe i am misunderstood you and you don't mean the golf ball spins forward and dives down like it does in tennis ball.
maybe you could help me understand you better as i don't understand about top spin.
thanks
bill

[Ian Hancock]

Re: the set-up, Moe vs the Pros

Hi Bill,

What I actually mean is a top spin 'shot' in table tennis, the action require with the club face in golf: )0

0 being the ball
) the path of the club

The reason the ball lifts is that when the golf ball passes through the air, the dimpled surface creates a layer of turbulence at the surface of the ball. As it spins, the surface air is dragged around the ball, creating a profile of disturbed air similar to an airfoil. This then works the same way as a very short (front to back), stocky airoplane wing, creating the lift force which allows the ball to stay in flight for longer periods of time than a smooth ball.

It is fortunate that these same forces, which create lift, also create a hook and slice when the axis of spin is tilted to the left or right by the manor in which the club face comes into contact with the ball.

Thus the draw spin dive bombs the ball back down like a duck hook which is simply an over worked attempt at a draw, or the more 'lift' friendly fade.

Ian.

[bill reed]

Re: the set-up, Moe vs the Pros

thanks Ian
i think i get what your saying.
your not saying that the ball spins in a forward motion but the fade shot gives more lift and lands softly where the draw gives less lift due to side spin and this also gives the ball less backspin and that why it runs more.
is that right.
thanks again
bill

[Ian Hancock]

Re: the set-up, Moe vs the Pros

Absolutely spot on Bill, at the top of the page is my highlighted statement.

There has got to be rotation to create power, like a top spin shot in table tennis....!!

If you over do this type of shot then a hook happens which basically kills the lift all together hence a 'low flying duck hook'......

If you think about the ball spining it must be rolling in a forward motion but slightly off axis once the initally lift dies, the bouncing bomb during the second world war had the same affect only using water to kill the backspin, initally spining backwards, but once in contact with the water it was running forward even faster, it had the same Characteristics as a golf ball.

Ian.

[bobby]

Re: the set-up, Moe vs the Pros

Another question on Moe's swing?
With extended arms at address, there appears to be very little "connecton" with the upper outside parts of the chest.
Isn't this a requirement for a more controlled swing and straighter shots?

[BrianW]

Re: the set-up, Moe vs the Pros

Another question on Moe's swing?
With extended arms at address, there appears to be very little "connecton" with the upper outside parts of the chest.
Isn't this a requirement for a more controlled swing and straighter shots?

Moe extended his arms so that they formed the same position at address and impact, his arms were always on plane. The arms will extend in the downswing so why not start with them like that so that you do not need to make difficult adjustments as in the two plane swing.

Less moving parts assist with consistency and accuracy.

[Cliff]

Re: the set-up, Moe vs the Pros

Absolutely spot on Bill, at the top of the page is my highlighted statement.

There has got to be rotation to create power, like a top spin shot in table tennis....!!

If you over do this type of shot then a hook happens which basically kills the lift all together hence a 'low flying duck hook'......

If you think about the ball spining it must be rolling in a forward motion but slightly off axis once the initally lift dies, the bouncing bomb during the second world war had the same affect only using water to kill the backspin, initally spining backwards, but once in contact with the water it was running forward even faster, it had the same Characteristics as a golf ball.

Ian.

Just to confirm that spin does not come from power, it comes from control of the hands through the impact area on the ball.

Like table tennis the hands dictate the angle of the blade at impact and this angle will impart spin. If you play table tennis you will understand that only a small amount of power is required to generate a huge amount of spin. Timing & balance is the key factor here.

Regards Cliff

[Ian Hancock]

Re: the set-up, Moe vs the Pros

Hi Cliff,

Un-steady ground here, but you are basically correct.

Your hand are the only thing conected to the club, hence the club face is controlled by the hands, the top level pros 'somehow' have a natual ability to delay the releasing of the hands into the ball so late that the create an incredable amount of power.

the club comes into the ball from the inside then straight back inside again so the face opens and closes very quickly.

Ian.

[Cliff]

Re: the set-up, Moe vs the Pros

Another question on Moe's swing?
With extended arms at address, there appears to be very little "connecton" with the upper outside parts of the chest.
Isn't this a requirement for a more controlled swing and straighter shots?

While it is good training practice to keep the link between upper arms and body part way through the swing.

It is also good practice to feel the freedom of the arms through the hitting area as this will allow you to make a smooth swing at impact.

Rather like throwing a ball at the top/full back position you are set to power on, at the release position you will have freedom between the arm and shoulder this will give you control and power.

Regards cliff