Pealing the onion - finding my swing

[Hannu]

I've kind of tried to figure out what I am learning, when I'm learning a swing. I've concluded that I need to learn to manage my own swing - not to copy others technique. I believe we all have our own "motor handwriting" - our own way to move. Sooo...

When I'm learning a swing, what am I learning? What is the essense of motor control - what does it take to master a swing?

A lot of discussion is written about what kind of movement should be done. Answer to question on how, is to practice. Is there an effective way to practice and where to focus my attention when practising?

(I just watched a DVD from Simon Holmes and he talks about "educating" your hands and things like that.)

[Ian Hancock]

Re: Pealing the onion - finding my swing

Hi Hannu,

Long time no speak old friend, my advice.

I will simply ask you to view Colin Mongomeries view on teaching, exactly the same as mine.

http://www.colinmontgomerie.com/Pages/teaching.html


Ian.

[Hannu]

Re: Pealing the onion - finding my swing

Hello Ian,

I've been blogging in Finnish, playing golf and working hard. It's good be here again. This site has the best feedback compared to any other golf forum.

I opened Colin's page and I'll dig in to it.

My curiosity about teaching comes from the fact that I've never taken a golf lesson. So I want to know how golf instructors develop beginners skills. Basic approaches would be:
1) Hole swing, but starting slow motion
2) Hole swing, but larger ball or shorter club
3) Learning part by part - like grip, hands, shoulder movement, hips ...
4) Well - just banging balls at a driving range and then on the course :-)

Hannu

[Ian Hancock]

Re: Pealing the onion - finding my swing

Hi Hannu,

If I were to start with a complete beginner then I would look at Grip first, feet together and just hitting chips.

I would also explain how the club face comes into contact with the ball correctly.

It needs to be slow, too many people just get a driver whatever and try to smash it to pieces for month on end at the range and then wonder why they can't play.

Just my opinion.

Ian.

[AvidGolfer]

Re: Pealing the onion - finding my swing

I've kind of tried to figure out what I am learning, when I'm learning a swing. I've concluded that I need to learn to manage my own swing - not to copy others technique. I believe we all have our own "motor handwriting" - our own way to move.

Body parts are designed to move in limited ways (for example: *unless someone is doube-jointed* there is only one direction the knees, elbows, and fingers will bend). Biomechanics and physics dictate that there are optimal ways to achieve certain positions, and if you deviate drastically from those positions you will be stuck fighting against nature and science.

That being said with high handicappers you will see drastic differences between most in how they setup and swing. When you look at low handicappers and pros you will see more similarities and less differences from one to the next in the way that they setup and swing.

If you want to advance fast in your persuit of achieving a low handicap you will find that it is much easier when you understand why and how the better players look so close to one another.

A lot of discussion is written about what kind of movement should be done. Answer to question on how, is to practice. Is there an effective way to practice and where to focus my attention when practising?

First you should determine where your weaknesses exist. If you don't already begin by recording how many fairways, greens, and putts per hole you have during your rounds. Then examine your short game, and how how often you get up and down when chipping, pitching, and hitting bunker shots. That should give you an idea of where your weaknesses are, and what you will benefit from practicing.

If you want to know how to make good use of your practice time you might benefit from reading David Leadbetter's Positive Practice, Jim Mclean's Golf School, or one of Dave Pelz studies on how to spend your practice time.

My curiosity about teaching comes from the fact that I've never taken a golf lesson. So I want to know how golf instructors develop beginners skills. Hannu

In general instructors will teach beginners the basics of grip, posture, balance, ball position, aim, alignment, and stance. Then they will try to keep things simple and easy to understand, and at times sacrifice technically correct information (see the wrist hinge topics) in an effort to keep things simple.

You're very likely to find the better your basics are the easier you'll find it to be consistant and shoot lower scores.

[Matt10]

Re: Pealing the onion - finding my swing

Hannu - I understand you do not want to try anyone elses swing, but I have been highly recommending SliceFixer's (on golfwrx) teachings. It is a very simple swing and the way he explains things is extraordinary.

http://youtube.com/user/slicefixer

[Hannu]

Re: Pealing the onion - finding my swing

Hannu - I understand you do not want to try anyone elses swing, but I have been highly recommending SliceFixer's (on golfwrx) teachings. It is a very simple swing and the way he explains things is extraordinary.

http://youtube.com/user/slicefixer

Hi Matt,

I've jointed golfwrx. I'll read slicefixer. I'm trying to get Leadbetters Interactive. I found a punsh of interactive automated solution that promise to fix or analyse my swing and give drills for practising.

I'm just not sure that that's the way to go. One different atempt is "AJ". He's idea is that thre is a stick, a ball and hand - eye coordination. If you know how to use the tool, you can practise to play golf. You hit the ball with a golf club - not with a swing....

Not buying that - but there is a point there. Swing is not what we are learning - there is not universal swing to be learned.

There might be good principals and laws of physics and even biomechanics, but not a obtimal swing that works for everyone.

[BrianW]

Re: Pealing the onion - finding my swing

Hi Matt,

I've jointed golfwrx. I'll read slicefixer. I'm trying to get Leadbetters Interactive. I found a punsh of interactive automated solution that promise to fix or analyse my swing and give drills for practising.

I'm just not sure that that's the way to go. One different atempt is "AJ". He's idea is that thre is a stick, a ball and hand - eye coordination. If you know how to use the tool, you can practise to play golf. You hit the ball with a golf club - not with a swing....

Not buying that - but there is a point there. Swing is not what we are learning - there is not universal swing to be learned.

There might be good principals and laws of physics and even biomechanics, but not a obtimal swing that works for everyone.

Take a look at 3 Skills. It explains how the club should hit the ball but lets you create the swing to do it.

[Hannu]

Re: Pealing the onion - finding my swing

Hi Brian,
I did not find much information about how the club hits the ball at 3Skills?
Just two pictures? What's the link?

AJ discusses about the contact issues like lay angle, open - close, hitting down and of course target line. And there's a long discussion about how the club works as a tool. How is it designed to be used. (Idea is that it's like a baseball bat, with an extra handle. (Bat is the clubface - not the shaft.)

I think I have a clear picture on what happens when we hit the ball. Interesting is how do we practise so that we get the results we are aiming at. (Learning a image of a movement called a swing or learning to smack a ball - called motor skill.)

Don't get me wrong - I've tried to learn a smooth swing for two years and I do not think it has been a total mistake. BUT to get better, I need to trust my uncounsious proprioseptic feedback and just smack the ball - when not as hard as I can, but as brave as I dare.

[BrianW]

Re: Pealing the onion - finding my swing

Hi Brian,
I did not find much information about how the club hits the ball at 3Skills?
Just two pictures? What's the link?

AJ discusses about the contact issues like lay angle, open - close, hitting down and of course target line. And there's a long discussion about how the club works as a tool. How is it designed to be used. (Idea is that it's like a baseball bat, with an extra handle. (Bat is the clubface - not the shaft.)

I think I have a clear picture on what happens when we hit the ball. Interesting is how do we practise so that we get the results we are aiming at. (Learning a image of a movement called a swing or learning to smack a ball - called motor skill.)

Don't get me wrong - I've tried to learn a smooth swing for two years and I do not think it has been a total mistake. BUT to get better, I need to trust my uncounsious proprioseptic feedback and just smack the ball - when not as hard as I can, but as brave as I dare.

You are correct, the 3 skills site does not have much information. The book is quite reasonably priced though and worth the money.

The system works on the premise that no matter what swing you have there are 3 skills that if executed will lead to great ball striking. One is to hit the ball at the correct downward angle for each club, the second is to hit the ball on the correct in to square to in path, the third is to move the clubface from open to closed through impact. The system does not tell you how to make your swing, it wants you to only concentrate on these skills and let the rest just happen.

There are a lot of pictures, drills and explanations of how imagery should be used.

[Hannu]

Re: Pealing the onion - finding my swing

3Skills sound very much similar as AJ on his video.

"So hitting squere - or just 3 degrees open and from open to shut. Down a little - lets say 15 cm before to down arc."

Has anyone seen the PGA Teaching manual? What does that say?

[Hannu]

Re: Pealing the onion - finding my swing

Body parts are designed to move in limited ways ...

Just think of a very simple skill like walking - and you can recognize person from the way they walk. We have a unique handwriting - same is true with motor skills. Yes, we need to know the letters to write and one way to lean is to copy letters. After a while we need to start to write our own stories...

[AvidGolfer]

Re: Pealing the onion - finding my swing

Just think of a very simple skill like walking - and you can recognize person from the way they walk. We have a unique handwriting - same is true with motor skills. Yes, we need to know the letters to write and one way to lean is to copy letters. After a while we need to start to write our own stories...

I agree that there are slight differences in the way some people walk. A few years ago I recall reading something by Nick Price about how walking was directed by shoulder movement (which I'd never heard/read before). Some people have more shoulder, hip, torso roation when walking, some have more knee flex, or longer strides, but most aren't drastically different. You don't see too many (if any) people walking around doing Monty Python silly walks. There is however a method of walking that is more proficient than other ways (just like their is an optimal way to run that makes the best use of your muscles and energy).

With handwritting you have a difference in where you position the writing instrument in your palm/fingers, the pressure you apply, and how much wrist movement you use. Writing is a small muscle action, and a decent golf swing is made with the bigger muscles, so the two actions don't correlate well. Once again some ways to write are more effective than others (some ways are quicker and some slower, some apply so much pressure that the fingers or wrists can get sore after a few minutes, and some can bruise or get smudges on your hand, fingers, and/or the paper). Just because you can whip the club around making convoluted loops in the backswing and/or downswing doesn't mean you should.

[Hannu]

Re: Pealing the onion - finding my swing

Hi AvidGolfer,

very good point that handwriting is fine motor action. Is golf a cross motor action? We do move big muscles, but what if the skill is about touch in your hands and timing?

Biggest part of our brain is controlling hands? Can we use hands to learn to swing? What if we would make a swing 70% about hand control and 30% about cross motor control.

Progression in learning would start with short shots with hands and from there continue to hit longer shots - at the end we would have a full swing with full body turn and weight shift...

Hopefully it would resemple a golf swing....

[Matt10]

Re: Pealing the onion - finding my swing

Hannu - I enjoyed learning about AJ and his style/method is very reliable. I shot my best ever score (-2, 68) using his technique. I remember watching his Truth about golf DVD so many different times, loved it. In the end, the swing didn't last and I found myself wanting something more consistent than just one round.

Slicefixer's method has me hitting down on the ball and swinging left - the ball goes straight or a slight fade. For the driver it is a knuckle fade - a very powerful golf shot that is a fade, but rolls like a draw. It will be useful towards my goals this year.