Driving distance,old to new

[golfshooter]

I have just ordered a new driver ,when the question arose to me.I have a selection of old drivers ranging from 10 to 20 years old .Around about how much extra distance would, say,a new King Cobra have over a ten year old one? This may sound naive but I have not been playing long.A discussion on any club brand as long as it compares apples to apples would be interesting I think.There are some at the club would rather give away their first born than give up their old drivers
Regards,golfshooter.

[bill reed]

Re: Driving distance,old to new

hi
i still have my old ping eye wooden driver, i can still hit 250 yards with it but i don't hit the target as much as i do with the metal driver. my ping zing 2 is much more forgiving and does give me about 8 to 10 yards more than my old ping eye and i can put the ball on the fairway 9 times out of 10.
i have tried a ping G2 and that did give me about 5 to 7 yards more than my Ping zing 2 but i could not play it off the fairway like i can with the zing, the zing is a 360 head i think.
with the big G2 460cc head i just don't seen to be able to get the ball in the air as well and i think it down to the sweet spot being so much higher on the face of the 46cc drivers, with the Ping zing driver i can play the ball from the fairway just like i was using a 3 or 5 wood and that gives me a extra club in my bag as i can hit the ball about 250 off the fairway and i get 230 with my 3 wood and 220 with my 1 iron so the driver is like a extra club when used from the fairway.
with the ping G2 i was gaining about to 7 yards on a drive but it still meant i was using the same clubs for my second shots, ie:- if i hit a drive with my zing and it left me with 180yds to the pin then i used a 5 iron but with the G2 i was left with 175 and still needed a 5 iron to get to the green. a 6 iron i get 168 yards.
a new driver giving me 5 to 7 yards would not help my game i would need a driver giving me 12 yards to make a difference to my second shot and i like to be able to play the driver of the fairway too. so for the moment I'll stick to my old but still very forgiving ping zing 2 driver.
cheers
Bill

[rotator]

Re: Driving distance,old to new

Hi Peter,

I basically agree with Bill regarding his distance observations, and also about the accuracy observations.

It also depends on who's swinging the club. For some, the increase in distance from the old to new could be much more significant. For instance, a player with slower speed can benefit more, because the newer driver may have lighter and better shafts (now down to 50gms graphite) and other technological aids. The fact that the head may be 460cc versus 360cc could make a difference in other than off-center hits on the club face losing less distance, but the difference would not be as much for a player who strikes the sweet spot with either. The SOG's and MOI's are progressively being increased to benefit the casual golfers, but these technologies have been around for a while, so there may not be as much a benefit for these elements in the past few years.

The major influence is the COR of the club. Generally, the newer drivers are built to the maximum COR of 0.83, whereas an older driver may not have the thin faces with the trampoline effect. In this regard, the material may be a factor, as older regular stainless steel heads may not have the ultra thin and contoured faces that a titanium face may be able to be contructed with. There was a period before the limiting of COR, where nonconforming clubs were available in some of the "older" clubs, and these are still findable.

Basically, many seniors are hitting the ball significantly farther than they ever did. I am one of those. On the other scale, Tiger could probably still hit his old deep faced Cobra with the heavy steel shaft close to 300 yards, but with a different flight and not as dependable accuracy-wise.

The distance for the pros are not as dramatic, as shown in the following table. The significant increase seems to be from year 2001 onwards, so perhaps if you're looking for the break point of old versus new drivers, distance-wise, you're looking in this period.

TABLE 1
Driving Distance and Driving Accuracy: 1990-2005

Year Average Driving (column 1)
distance (column 2)
Driving accuracy percentage (column 3)
Correlation between distance and accuracy (column 4)

(1) (2) (3) (4)
1990 262.7 65.3% -.359
1991 261.4 67.1% -.306
1992 260.4 68.6% -.416
1993 260.2 68.8% -.417
1994 261.9 69.2% -.346
1995 263.4 69.5% -.457
1996 266.4 68.3% -.469
1997 267.6 68.6% -.448
1998 270.5 69.5% -.469
1999 272.5 68.4% -.471
2000 273.2 68.3% -.379
2001 279.4 68.4% -.346
2002 279.8 67.7% -.474
2003 286.6 66.1% -.612
2004 287.2 64.1% -.606
2005 288.6 62.8% -.679

One could argue with conviction, that physical fitness, improved coaching and techniques, matching of launch angle and spin, improved technologies in golf balls, and agronomy has had as much effect on the distance as the equipment.

Ted

P.S. I just looked or the 2008 driving average and it is 287. Bubba Watson's average was 315 though.
One should keep in mind these are measured drives on specific holes during tournaments, so is not a true seasonal average.

[bill reed]

Re: Driving distance,old to new

hi Ted
just to add to the points you were making, Gary Player when at 72 (i think he 74 now) said he was driving longer now than he was when he was in his 20s.

one thing i do think you gain with the new drivers (460cc) is forgiveness so you hit some part of the fairway more and the ball runs so it seems longer than when hitting the rough all the time.
cheers
Bill

[rotator]

Re: Driving distance,old to new

Hi Bill,

What you say about Gary Player applies to virtually all the super senior golfers, who are hitting the ball if not longer, at least as long, and with a lot less club head speed.

So, when they say the average distances have not significantly changed over the years, that may be essentially true, but what's wrong with maintaining your old distances as you reach the super senior ages.

BTW Bill, I'd like your views on the two Martin Hall videos, which I continually post. Do you object to anything there as being off track, or is it sound for most golfers (other than the followers of other non conventional alternative swing schools). I find the lessons to be learned from his teachings, perhaps a well needed eye-opener for most casual golfers, to truely understand what they should be doing.

Ted

[bill reed]

Re: Driving distance,old to new

hi Ted
if you want something a bit diffrent then have a look at the Mindy Blake forum. he swings a bit like Trevino but has a system called reflex swing,
i found it a real eye opener and bought both his books;_
"the golf swing of the future." and "the technique barrier."
you will be suprised just how many people out there are using Mindy's system.
i not suggesting you change to it more read about a diffrent type of swing on his forum.
there are some picture on there and some of the best are of Richard Wax.
all the best
Bill

[rotator]

Re: Driving distance,old to new

Hi Bill,

As you will have noticed I am interested in all things golf and in different swing theories and innovations. I think you can learn from every thought, as you can determine if it suits your own particular needs, or if it is totally the opposite of what suits you, in which case it is still a learning. I've picked up invaluable bits from many different sources, which I have incorporated into my swing. Still learning all the time.

I will look into Mindy Blake, thanks for the heads up. I see he was a former captain at Wentworth. Has he taught any professional players?

I've just watched another episode of Build a New Life in the Country, a BBC series I gather, which is being shown here. I find the series very interesting.

Ted

[bill reed]

Re: Driving distance,old to new

Hi Ted
Mindy was New Zealand and he lectured in physics, he was also pole vaulter. going into the RAF in 1936 and was a squadron commander in the battle of Britain and awarded the DSO and DFC, he also devised a way of crash landing fighters in the English Channel that had you dip one wing so the plane cartwheeled and cut the speed of landing. he was the first to use this and it saved many lives. in 1958 he left the RAF and became an engineer and inventor, he invented the swingrite. as you say he was captain of the Wentworth club and he died in 1981.
he could not understand why golf had not moved on like other sports. most players were still playing of handicaps of about 18 and that had not changed in 50 years but every Olympic sport had got better and the standards raised, so he studied it and came up with his reflex system. were you set up and go into yore back swing. if your set up and back swing are good then your legs and hips slid and your shoulder,arms and hand follow in a reflex action. it does work and i have tried it and put some of what he does into my Trevino swing.


he was an amazing man.
cheers
Bill

[LowPost42]

Re: Driving distance,old to new

When you nut it, the drivers will go about the same (even 10 year old metal woods - even old persimmon drivers).

The big difference is when you miss it. When you miss it, drivers in the last 3 years have a significant edge, and there are some technologies (like those in the Mizuno MX600, the Adams A4 and the Wishon 919) that have the most forgiving face technologies in place.

Personally, I'd try to find an old Taylormade R540 - a tremendous driver in its day.

[bill reed]

Re: Driving distance,old to new

hi Lowpost
have you tried hitting one of the new drivers off the fairway. the new drivers are meant to make contact with the ball about 3/4 of the way up the face. i don't know why the sweet spot was moved higher and there must be a good reason for it, maybe you know why?
i did see a test a year or two ago on the iron Byron where the top 10 drivers of the time were use with the same ball type and there was no more that 5 yards between them all.
that is why you see so many pros using diffrent drivers, by that i mean the same maker but diffrent models of driver. if you take ping you have pros using the Rapture and the Rapture 2, the G5 and the G2 and there are a couple using the G10.
i think there has been more advance in drivers than any other club even the putter.
cheers
bill

[rotator]

Re: Driving distance,old to new

Hi LowPost42,

Personally, I'd try to find an old Taylormade R540 - a tremendous driver in its day.

It was/is a good driver. I see them pop up from time to time on ebay. I run into a lot of senior golfers who have them in their bags. I'd say to them that's a great club, isn't it, and they say they love them.

It's about a 440cc I would think, with a shallow face.

Ted

[rotator]

Re: Driving distance,old to new

Hi Bill,

Regarding the sweetspot being higher on the new big drivers, LowPost may have a different idea, but I think it's because the proximity of the crown adds stability to the increasingly thin faces of those drivers. You don't want a tinny reverberating face hit for the sweetspot, which is what you get in the middle of that big face.

Ted

[LowPost42]

Re: Driving distance,old to new

Bill,

Interestingly enough, the CoG of the modern driver is lower and deeper than before. Why we want to hit the ball on the upper third of the face is that it increases launch angle (a good thing) while keeping spin numbers down. The higher on the face you hit it, the lower the spin number (and vice versa). It's very difficult these days to find a driver where the CoG and the area of max COR line up - when you do, however, keep that head! It will be a super head that produces a ton of ball speed and solid feel.

[golfshooter]

Re: Driving distance,old to new

Hi everyone,this has certainly generated some disscussion.Does anyone reccomend Martin Halls work at the begining of this site?Seems a bit to simple, but maybe it really is.Mindys sounds very interesting.It struck me during writing this that I have never actually been shown or had a lesson in driving with a wood. By the content of the discussion I see it is another facet of golf that needs my full attention.Where does a beginner start?The last thing I want is to learn a bad technique and then have to try to get it out of my game,I dont even know what the abreviations mean.
regards,Peter

[rotator]

Re: Driving distance,old to new

Hi Peter,

The two Martin Hall videos here, and many others of his lessons, are meant to give beginners and casual golfers basic principles and understanding of what wrist cock is, what the impact "position" should be, etc. He uses props frequently to clearly illustrate the points, which a beginner can easily understand and see. For instance, did all of you really know what the wrist cock was, without seeing it demonstrated by the hinges, or did you have some other idea which you picked up from seeing pictures and interpreting them. I know when I started golf, I thought that's simple, just take the ball back and swing. It was later that i found out that I was not getting the full benefit from the swing, because of simple principles like misconceptions regarding the grip and wrist cock.

I posted the videos, because it may seem simple to you, but it should help some beginner.

Ted