More on driver shoulder turn

[takinitdeep]

Still obsessed with increasing my shoulder turn with driver; very satisfied with all other clubs. Other than shortening the shaft, I am still working on shoulder, lat, hamstring flexibility. I have been reminded when breaking down the various parts with the driver swing how important the left leg is for moving the weight, increasing shoulder turn and keeping spine angle.
Mr. Mays and others should have lots of opinions on the left leg action in the backswing and its influence on shoulder turn; I value all opinions and thought this would make for interesting thread.

[GregJWillis]

Re: More on driver shoulder turn

Left leg in the backswing? It's nothing more then a counter balance.

[takinitdeep]

Re: More on driver shoulder turn

My perspective is a little different. I think the motion of the left leg helps to add leverage to the left shoulder going under the chin, helps to support the weight going to a flexed but stable right leg, and, can help synchronize the hip and shoulder turn, ie. 45 and 90 respectively.

Left leg in the backswing? It's nothing more then a counter balance.

[GregJWillis]

Re: More on driver shoulder turn

I think you might be confusing "cause" and "affect" here. The left leg shouldn't cause anything to happen. It should be affected by other things happening.

[takinitdeep]

Re: More on driver shoulder turn

Nothing "confusing" about it. Try keeping the left leg still and see what happens. If the left leg does not "cause" anything to happen, then keeping it rigid should not affect your swing--but it does.

I think you might be confusing "cause" and "affect" here. The left leg shouldn't cause anything to happen. It should be affected by other things happening.

[GregJWillis]

Re: More on driver shoulder turn

You are mixing cause and affect again. Don't cause your left leg to do anything. Don't make it do this or do that. Don't make it stay in any one place, nor don't make it go to another place.

The idea I am trying to help you in, is that if you are thinking about your left leg at all, then you are probably manipulating it to cause another part of the swing to be out of your natural position.

Create all the big shoulder turn using your core, not your base. A base it used to balance. Your core is used to generate the rotation and power.

[takinitdeep]

Re: More on driver shoulder turn

Not "mixing" anything. I turn with the core and I do not cause the left leg to do anything. The point I was trying, albeit unsuccessfully in your case, to make was the left leg plays an important part in the swing. Therefore, those who don't allow the left leg to get its natural bending with the knee at or behind the ball, are missing the link to the shoulder turn. With a 90/45 shoulder to hip ratio, I guess I am not missing too much core turning.
Lets not pretend I am too much of an idiot and likewise that you are too much of a guru and we will get along just fine.
Last time I will attempt to make a point on this DB lest I suffer your hypercritical remarks.
Thank you very much.

You are mixing cause and affect again. Don't cause your left leg to do anything. Don't make it do this or do that. Don't make it stay in any one place, nor don't make it go to another place.

The idea I am trying to help you in, is that if you are thinking about your left leg at all, then you are probably manipulating it to cause another part of the swing to be out of your natural position.

Create all the big shoulder turn using your core, not your base. A base it used to balance. Your core is used to generate the rotation and power.

[takinitdeep]

Re: More on driver shoulder turn

Reverse pivot or as you call it, fall back, occurs when the weight transfer and shoulder pivot fail.
One reason they fail is the player forgets to let his legs move to the beat, like dancing, getting the legs active instead of like two fence posts.
Don't underestimate the influence of the legs-like our friend Greg.

There are no special ways to grip the club, there is no spine angle, there is no lower body action in the golf swing that does not happen from the upper body, thus there are no drills to do and no special way of swinging. That is the Tour Swing.

I had a lady last Monday and Tuesday which cost her $2500.00.

I gave her a morning lesson, she wanted a walking lesson because she never played the course and I have a list of professionals I draw upon.

The professional gets $250.00 for playing my student 18 holes, a extra $150.00 if he beats my player and zero if he shots 78 or higher.

The major problem in the golf swing has been back rotation and the Big One is a Slight Fall Back in the forward swing.

Grab any club, grip it and for the right hander, slide the outside of the left shoulder to the outside of the left foot.

Make a slow swing to shoulder high and a very slow swing back down and you will feel the weight going back to the right foot slightly. That is Fall-Back and then the person rotates around in the forward swing thinking he shifted the weight over to the left foot.

That little fall-back action robs the player of 30 or more yards with the driver, forces the player to over-work the lower body and you see back problems.

Now we can play with the left shoulder slide, but it must also be countered balanced.

Grip the club, move the right shoulder to the outside of the right foot, slide it over and swing the club back to shoulder high and down. Notice how your hips start working. With that one you will get a sliding action of the hips and rotatation. This is a little too much sliding to the right, but I want you to see the feel in the lower body. You can play in in that position, but we need to discuss a few items of importance.

If you do slide the left shoulder out to the left, what would prevent Fall-Back.

Second:

At just above waist high in the backswing your back needs to be fully turned.

I said this before: Face the left palm towards the ground w/o the club and bring the hand around the waist to the right leg. You should notice your back is fully turned, a little more turn and you will feel the tension in the back, the springs loading.

Now just putting the left hand on top of the grip to where the palm is down would give you a very strong grip and over time you could play using the strong grip, but we like working the club. Turn the clubface open, that shifts the left thumb to the left and your grip is weaker. Now what are you going to do?

Get the driver out, learn what Fall-Back Feels Like. Then learn to throw Fall-Back in the garbage where it belongs.

[GregJWillis]

Re: More on driver shoulder turn

Not "mixing" anything. I turn with the core and I do not cause the left leg to do anything.

Ok, then this is good.

...the left leg plays an important part in the swing. Therefore, those who don't allow the left leg to get its natural bending with the knee at or behind the ball, are missing the link to the shoulder turn. With a 90/45 shoulder to hip ratio, I guess I am not missing too much core turning.

Totally agree.

Lets not pretend I am too much of an idiot and likewise that you are too much of a guru and we will get along just fine.

Perfectly agree.

Last time I will attempt to make a point on this DB lest I suffer your hypercritical remarks.

I didn't think this was getting to this point at all, and I have to appologize to you. Please forgive me, I did get overzealous with my persistance.

The importance of the left leg is there, don't get me wrong. Your question was specific about it in the backswing. I focused my responses on this part only.

[oldwease]

Re: More on driver shoulder turn

I find it helps to think of turning the upper chest rather than simply turning the shoulders. A lot of people end up with what I call a fake shoulder turn by not actually rotating the upper body properly. With this, they try to tuck the left shoulder around, almost across the chest, actually narrowing the natural width of the shoulders (as the right shoulder often doesn't move that much). This gets very cramped. Turning the upper chest takes care of the shoulders and, for me, works much better as a concept.

I think I should have added that, with the driver, I definitely start with most of my weight on the right side, certainly not 50/50. I do this for the reason that, I think, cmays mentioned somewhere else - it's actually pretty near impossible to shift all your weight back and forth in the swing. I suppose if you're more 50/50 with the driver, you may feel the need to use the left leg more to initiate a big wide turn.

[takinitdeep]

Re: More on driver shoulder turn

Not to beat a dead horse, but lets discuss the left shoulder getting to where the right shoulder was at address during the backswing. Watching vijay and others, they keep that left bicep almost attached to the left chest wall while turning back in the backswing. When I get wild on my drives its usually that I have come disconnected.
Anyone else have the connected/disconnested feeling?

I find it helps to think of turning the upper chest rather than simply turning the shoulders. A lot of people end up with what I call a fake shoulder turn by not actually rotating the upper body properly. With this, they try to tuck the left shoulder around, almost across the chest, actually narrowing the natural width of the shoulders (as the right shoulder often doesn't move that much). This gets very cramped. Turning the upper chest takes care of the shoulders and, for me, works much better as a concept.

I think I should have added that, with the driver, I definitely start with most of my weight on the right side, certainly not 50/50. I do this for the reason that, I think, cmays mentioned somewhere else - it's actually pretty near impossible to shift all your weight back and forth in the swing. I suppose if you're more 50/50 with the driver, you may feel the need to use the left leg more to initiate a big wide turn.

[takinitdeep]

Re: More on driver shoulder turn

I suppose I am 2.5 versus 2 or 3 because I keep the left bicep close to the body but I also allow the left arm to flex somewhat. Keeping the left arm straight is for younger more supple players who can get the pivot.
I am a larger chested larger shoulder person and I let the chest do the backswing bringing the back to the target while keeping the left bicep closer to the body, the right arm in the tray position, and, using the left knee pointing behind the ball which allows the left shoulder to turn under the chin on the backswing. On the forward swing, the right knee kisses the back of the left knee and the right shoulder drives forward under the chin and letting the clubhead pass through while the hands seem to almost stop near my left knee to get the whip going.
I don't worry about levers, it would mess my mind up.
Good info cmays, I didn't know about the levers differences; it would probably give me too much more to obsess about-my plate is full.

If I may I will answer this.

In the golf swing there is the 2 lever or what I call a 1 hinge.

There is also the 3 lever or what I call 2 hinges. What Annika changed to, Tao of Golf, Blair.

2 Lever System:

The left arm is straight, 1st lever and the club is straight, 2nd lever, the wrist is the hinge.

You keep the left arm straight, it remains close to the chest, you swing a little to the inside keeping the arm close to the chest and on the downswing the club head comes out and you rotate the club around.

You must learn to turn your back and not to pick up, you need lower body action in the downswing.

3 Lever System:

Shoulder to elbow, 1st lever, elbow 1st hinge, elbow to hand, 2nd lever, wrist is second hinge and then the straight club is the 3rd lever.

In the back swing the left arm is curved. The club in the back swing comes a little out then around the right shoulder with the curve in the left arm and then in the down swing the club head is thrown at the ball and rotates around. There is never an attempt to keep the left arm close to the chest.

Now, if you think, I will just flex the left arm at address, keep the curve in it in the back swing and fire down at the ball and both hinges go into action for speed. Will not happen. There is a special action that allows all that to happen, a special move that most would never pick up on.

Bill Reed spoke a little on that from what he learned from Lee Trevenio, the natural left arm action.

The long back swing, straight left arm is your 2 lever, 1 hinge.

The shorter more compact swing that you are seeing more of is 3 levers and 2 Hinges. How much curve you see in the left arm in the back swing is dependent on their body type and there is nothing for them to adjust or do, the body takes care of this and the back is turned by itself, thus upper body action in the down swing works.

[kbp]

Re: More on driver shoulder turn

Cmays, I’ll bite, for discussion purposes.

Can hand action (and maybe the resulting club movement and self balancing) at the beginning of the takeaway turn the body or at least pressure it to turn? One action I’m thinking of specifically is using the hands to rotate the club shaft counterclockwise about the axis of the shaft (if you were looking at the butt cap of the grip) off the takeaway and maybe to the top. Maybe you would call this "curling" with the left fingers, or revving the motorcycle with the right hand, counter-rotation, a variation on Dante......I don’t know, but it does several interesting things to the swing. Thoughts?

[takinitdeep]

Re: More on driver shoulder turn

Although you addressed your post to cmays, I would like to butt in also.
Fanning the club is a real no no for most; some can do it but it greatly diminishes the chances of getting back to square.
The club opens naturally through the pivot not the hands by themselves.
I can hit shots by fanning the club on the bs but man, your timing had better be near perfect; that's why I don't do it as a routine just for kicks.
You are asking for all kinds of weird shots with fanning.

Cmays, I’ll bite, for discussion purposes.

Can hand action (and maybe the resulting club movement and self balancing) at the beginning of the takeaway turn the body or at least pressure it to turn? One action I’m thinking of specifically is using the hands to rotate the club shaft counterclockwise about the axis of the shaft (if you were looking at the butt cap of the grip) off the takeaway and maybe to the top. Maybe you would call this "curling" with the left fingers, or revving the motorcycle with the right hand, counter-rotation, a variation on Dante......I don’t know, but it does several interesting things to the swing. Thoughts?

[kbp]

Re: More on driver shoulder turn

No problem, jump in!

Yes, fanning is a killer, however, I’m referring to a rotation in the direction opposite to fanning.