Backspin

[skullycapone]

Re: Backspin

The best story I ever heard regarding backspin was the following (the story is from harvey Pennick's Little Red Book).

An amateur was playing with Sam Snead, and he asked Sam how to get backspin on his iron shots.

"When you hit an iron approach, do you usually come up short of the pin or hit it past it?" asked Sam.

"I almost always come up short."

"Then what do you need backspin for?"

While that may be okay for the guy who hits it short all the time, this certainly doesnt make any sense what so ever for the guy that always hits it in the middle of the green and the ball bounces off the green another 20 yards.

On another note this guy doesnt care about your advise on wether to try this shot or not, or your wild thoeries and god like vision, ALL HE WANTS TO KNOW IS HOW TO HIT THE SHOT.

My frustration is due to every forum I visit and someone asks how to get backspin the same responses show up. The guy wants to know how, not why he shouldnt.

[BrianW]

Re: Backspin

I know we see this happen with the tour pros but in reality I can say that I have hardly ever seen it with club golfers other than the odd bunker splash. I can count on one hand the number of times I have spun a ball back, the greens need to be in absolutely perfect condition, the ball needs to have a soft skin and be struck off fairways with better surfaces than most clubs greens.

It may not be what someone wants to hear but if you want the ball to stop then pitch it high or get the right amount of bump and run.

[LowPost42]

Re: Backspin

I'll second Brian's sentiments.

My home club has greens that are generally firm, but shaggy. Thus, the ball gets spin wiped off it when it hits, so 'sucking it back' rarely happens. The same shot at a club with firm, well manicured greens has seen shots of mine come back 10 feet or more. I have yet to suck one off the front of a green, but when I'm playing to pin high, having one suck back (rather than one hop and stop) leaves me a longer putt.

[bruin]

Re: Backspin

we may not be able to get back spin for all the reasons mentioned, but at least the ball should stay on the green and not bounce 20 yards through.that is a more atainable goal me thinks

[LowPost42]

Re: Backspin

we may not be able to get back spin for all the reasons mentioned, but at least the ball should stay on the green and not bounce 20 yards through.that is a more atainable goal me thinks

The issue is that there are tons of reasons why someone doesn't hold a green.

The greens may be firm and shaggy.
The greens may undulate quite a bit, and the player may catch a downslope.

The player may not be compressing the ball well enough to generate the spin - either from a lack of swingspeed or poor mechanics (ie a sweeping iron swing).

It's the same reason why on my home course, a very-well struck chip with a LW still runs out as much as it flies. The greens just don't do well with checking up.

[Mox]

Re: Backspin

I had a long talk with my pro about this, and he mentioned one element that I dont think has been mentioned in this thread.

A big impact on backspin is bounce. Yup - you heard me. The bounce of the club makes a difference. More importantly, using that same bounce right will make all the difference.

Golf clubs are designed to approach the ball from the inside on a downward trajectory. When they do that, the bounce on the club allows it to continue accelerating through the ball, keeping the leading edge of the club face from digging in and keeping the ball in contact with the club face for as long as possible.
The long contact with an accelerating club face is what imparts the high amount of backspin.

Now - the reason why many of us hackers are having problems getting enough spin to get that "magic" rollback on the green, is quite simply that we dont attack the ball on the right path, on the right trajectory, or both.

The vast majority of hackers have a "built-in" fade (read: slice). Very often, that comes from an out-to-in swing path. Out-to-in takes the bounce out of play and digs the leading edge in. The result = less backspin.

So the notion that opening the stance, opening the club face and cutting across the ball (like in sand play) will increase spin, might not stick. In fact it might work against the purpose.

[bruin]

Re: Backspin

the point i was trying to make, is , you should try to get back spin , it promotes good contact and should hold the green. i don't get back spin but i can attack the pin and keep the ball on the green.

[LowPost42]

Re: Backspin

the point i was trying to make, is , you should try to get back spin , it promotes good contact and should hold the green. i don't get back spin but i can attack the pin and keep the ball on the green.

The issue is that backspin is a byproduct of swing mechanics. A steep AoA with ball first contact is going to create more spin than a shallow AoA with ball first contact.

A gigantic beaver pelt (assuming you hit ball first) is going to generate serious stopping power if the shot doesn't balloon.

[bruin]

Re: Backspin

my point exactly, good strike (ball then divot ) = stopping power. how much then depends on quality of ball & green .

[hankdaddy]

Re: Backspin

i have a question about something nobody ever talks about when discussing back spin. this is for the people who know about grass and whats underneath the greens.

when i goto my local municipal course which is not the greatest course in the world, id say about average(?). for example, bluegrass fairways and tees, you know basically a course that doesnt get a ton of money dumped into it. anyway, i have an extremely tough time getting the ball to 'hop and stop' and there is basically no chance of it spinning back on full sw shots. now when i goto the 4 star expensive course its the exact opposite. every chip i hit into the greens will stop on a dime, which pretty much causes me to be short because its hard to accept this will happen when im not used to it. anything close to a full sw to my 9 iron will spin back 20 or so feet.


so what is going on here. my parents own a golf course so i know a little about the management of the greens. so im guessing my local municipal and the nice course have what about 4 inches of sand underneath them. could it be the quality of sand? or is it just the quality of the bent grass? of course theres other variables such as, the nice course has bent grass fairways compared to bluegrass which means a lower(probably not necessarily but given the money to manage the course) cleaner cut and lie. but i cant accept its just because i can hit the ball cleaner 90% of the time on the bent grass fairways because you can still get really good lies on the bluegrass. or maybe its because the bent grass is thicker and grabs the ball better?

[GreeBoman]

Re: Backspin

Its more to do with the firmness of the greens.
5* "American Style" courses have soft, receptive greens.
The ball will not hop 5foot in the air on landing but rather will grip and either stop or spin back a bit.

More natural courses are drier and thus firmer so backspin is very unlikely.

The greens at Augusta started to firm up and 90% of the guys didnt know what to do when the ball didnt stop so they complained and the greens got watered.


Hence we return to the (boring) style of hit it as far as you can off the tee (in any direction), someone finds it for you, hit your wedge to the green and it will stop dead, even from the (flattened) rough.

Yawn.

[hankdaddy]

Re: Backspin

yea i was just curious if when people said the 'condition of the greens' matters what they meant exactly. ive also never played bermuda grass so i wonder what the difference is there, if any. you said 'natural' courses harden up quicker. im not sure exactly what you mean by natural but i know my parents course is mostly dirt under the greens and sand greens firm up a lot quicker. the bounce seems to be more dull though, at least from my experience.

[GreeBoman]

Re: Backspin

I consider the European and Eastern courses to be more realistic, especially when compared with the courses that you and I would regularly play on.

Yeah the greens are softer than the fairways but they are not the sponges that you typically see in American (TV) golf.

[bill reed]

Re: Backspin

hi
i agree that there is two types of golf now played. the well watered green that stop the ball dead even out of heavy rough and the kind of greens you get in links golf where the wind drys out even a watered green in a few hours.
in links golf near me most of the greens are over 80 years old and some even lots older and the have humps, bumps and hollows and so unlike the greens you see in the USA that are set up to be moaded and cut where the old grees over here are more how the land lie's. many fairways have the tops of humps shaves my the grass cutters and a lot of it hase to be hand cut and not from the back of a tractor.
putting also is so diffrent and i think you have to have more shots in your bag to play links golf. spinning the ball back is harder as you have more humps and hollows so you have to ffind the right spot on the green to stop the ball going right through or hitting a hump and spinning back twice as much as it should.
over here in Scotland we all it, "the rub of the green!" and its all part of the game.
cheers
bill

[Neil18]

Re: Backspin

I was only talking about this with my girlfriend the other day (and before anyone says anything, I KNOW!!!!)

We were watching the PGA at Wentworth and talking about why Tiger wasn't there. Apart from his recent operation I suggested that he wouldn't have played even if he was fit.

When asked why I explained that good players choose where they play carefully. They choose courses that suit their games and what they're used to excpet when it comes to Majors where they' can't choose, because it's a Major. Tiger and other top players aren't used to proper clumpy rough and running the ball in instead of flying it all the way. In fact, I'd go as far as to suggest that most of them don't play as well on the older style of course (most courses in the UK are 50+ old) used in top tournaments. I thought Wentworth looked lovely but there were apparently complaimts about the greens from some of teh players!

Come putt on my course chaps! Pro standard greens for 4 weeks out of 52!

It would explain why you never see 28 under par winning a tournament over here as you do in the US, and why Opens are won regularly with over par or only just under par scores.

I like playing in England. You get to practice target golf in winter and "run it" golf in summer. The best of both worlds.

As for the questions about why certain grasses and greens are receptive or not, I know absolutely nothing about it but am thinking that the older courses that are simply planted straight onto the natural land with whatever the indigenous strain of grass is are much more suceptable to the vagaries of weather and disease, than those made to withstand all conditions and to accept all types of artificial conditioning.