Dave Pelz - best tip....

[homer333]

Re: Dave Pelz - best tip....

The problem with pelz is the following---first thing if i can see the man myself in person and take a lesson thats not good--its much more lucrative for him to set up these short game schools all in these real exclusive clubs charge 3000.00 and not even show up---no good!---he trains some guys i think he has something like 20 guys that work for him ------and he collects the money-----im willing to bet he cant stand to look at a 20 handicapper but he will gladly take his money------he fills peoples head with things we do not need to know about-----secondly and i could go on for a long time about this-----as far as technique is concerned he says in his book to be 50/50 as far as set-up to hit these pitch shots ---well anyone tour player or good instructor always tell you to be more like 60/40 or 70/30 with more weight always on your left leg(for right handers)---much easier for a descending blow----and show me whose following through to a full finish ----you can accelerate without having to go to a full finish every time you hit a 30 yard pitch---sorry --sore spot

[Mox]

Re: Dave Pelz - best tip....

The problem with pelz is the following---first thing if i can see the man myself in person and take a lesson thats not good--its much more lucrative for him to set up these short game schools all in these real exclusive clubs charge 3000.00 and not even show up---no good!---he trains some guys i think he has something like 20 guys that work for him ------and he collects the money-----im willing to bet he cant stand to look at a 20 handicapper but he will gladly take his money

I'm not going to dispute your points. They may be quite valid, and my Pelz books haven't arrived yet, so I don't have the knowledge to argue anything different, but ...

The above is true for any of the "coaches/players/ex-players" involved in publishing golf-technique related books or involved with golf academies.

Count them ... Leadbetter, Niclaus, Palmer, Woods etc. etc.

And how about all the golfers publishing "biographies" about their careers and what they did to excel? Aren't they too just money-hungry vultures going for the hard-earned $$ in the pockets of ordinary golfers?

I don't see the point in making it conceptually "wrong" to make money if you are able to provide a product that consumers want, be it a good book or a golf-lesson.

A lot of people swear by Pelz' bibles. You don't. That's fine. But it does not make Pelz a bad person.

[bill reed]

Re: Dave Pelz - best tip....

hi homer333
turn on to the golf channel any night and you will get free tips from dave plez himself. wont cost you a cent. i have watched most of then at lest 3/4 times.
when dave plez started his aim was to find out where you win and lose shots, he spent years finding it out them and a lot more year talking to pro's and getting them to try his system, his scoring system was using 4 wedges, when the pros started talking up the 4 wedge systen he started to study putting more but he was working with pros and handicap players, he is more into reseach than teaching and only tried teaching to prove to the pros his system worked,
he started up his teaching school to be able to show his system to more people and that means getting more teaches, he had a large number of top pros he works with on a yearly basis and i dont see how he will have much time to fit in many 20 handicap player with his tv comitments and his work with the top tour pro,s.
he is not diffrent from other top teacher that are in demand.
i do like his books and i do think he talks sense, my game has got better because of plez,
his next book, "course management" i will also buy when it comes out here in the uk.
bill

[BrianW]

Re: Dave Pelz - best tip....

Spot on Bill

[captglover]

Re: Dave Pelz - best tip....

homer333,

Yes, people who sell things, generally want to make money on them...

Pelz is selling the hard earned results of his personal research. One look at the book shows the immense amount of time he has spent working on certain problems in the game of golf. The way he describes his history, it seems he spent a lot of years broke, or owing money trying to get his theories defined and polished. Now that he has refined his system, and is getting recognition for it - and results from the pros he teaches - I see no reason why he shouldn't make money for his hard work. Who wouldn't want to make enough money from one's passion to be able to not work on anything else and make a living?

While it is true that the learning experience is never as "electric" learning from an assistant, there is still a lot that can be learned from those schooled in a master's techniques. Especially when the teaching is based on repeatable techniques that identical for all golfers. The instructor doesn't have to tweak the lesson to fit the swing of the golfer, nor is he teaching "feel". This is the real difference in Master vs. instructor - it's when the teacher has to modify the lesson to custom fit the student. None of Pelz' lessons are subjective, they are solid techniques which should be the same for every golfer. I think the golfer who is really motivated to learn Pelz' system would benefit from one of his short game schools - even taught by assistants.

A couple of points about your description of Pelz' work - one, his short game clinics are more afordable and for the golfer who hasn't a lot of cash. If he didn't want to include the average golfer he's just run his expensive three day school. If $375 is too much money, at least one can spend $35 on the book and do the drills. That should improve most golfers games. It has mine!

Also, I'm not sure where you get your descriptions of his techniques. The full follow through is only used on his "Distance Wedge" shots, not a 30 yard pitch, where he calls for a half finish. And he also explains that for most wedge shots he believes that using a weight shift is important to the rhythm of a shot, which is far more beneficial that a static weight forward stance. Pelz does use the weight forward stance with chipping, which is a different stroke. Most golf instructors teach a quiet lower body for pitching, because they want you in the final position - to make sure you get there, and personally I wonder if that sort of instruction is for the 20 handicapper only. Something the average golfer, who doesn't practice much, can do to get quick results. Somehow I don't think David Ledbetter taught the same exact techniques to Nick Price as he shows in his tips videos. If everything is laid out in the video lesson, then why does Ledbetter get $5000 for a personal lesson?

I'm not saying you have to like his system, most "feel" players don't want to go anywhere near his teachings, but if one is a recreational, yet passionate golfer, trying to seriously improve his game (for not much money), AND one appreciates a teaching system where all the facts are presented in a logical and repeatable method, then I think his books are exceptional.

Of course, as with any systematic approach, instruction videos, personal lessons - if you don't go out and really practice the drills and take the time to understand the theory behind a lesson and how it works on you, you won't benefit.

The problem with pelz is the following---first thing if i can see the man myself in person and take a lesson thats not good--its much more lucrative for him to set up these short game schools all in these real exclusive clubs charge 3000.00 and not even show up---no good!---he trains some guys i think he has something like 20 guys that work for him ------and he collects the money-----im willing to bet he cant stand to look at a 20 handicapper but he will gladly take his money------he fills peoples head with things we do not need to know about-----secondly and i could go on for a long time about this-----as far as technique is concerned he says in his book to be 50/50 as far as set-up to hit these pitch shots ---well anyone tour player or good instructor always tell you to be more like 60/40 or 70/30 with more weight always on your left leg(for right handers)---much easier for a descending blow----and show me whose following through to a full finish ----you can accelerate without having to go to a full finish every time you hit a 30 yard pitch---sorry --sore spot

[BrianW]

Re: Dave Pelz - best tip....

Captglover,

What a good message, I agree wholeheartedly. You have summed up the reply perfectly.

[bill reed]

Re: Dave Pelz - best tip....

hi captglover
i agree with everything you said, so much info in his book i think you would miss some of it if on a one day couse, dont think you could take all the info dave plez gives you in a week, so much reading in his books and he covers so much others dont, like you said he's not teaching a full swing system like ledbetter does but he does work on saving you shots on and around the green and thats what we are all after.
when you think of all the pains-taking notes he took year after year to get his data base then the years putting the info together its amazing he still has such a love of the game of golf. not many of us cold spend day after day recoding where drive went and how many seconds shots landed on the green and where, where the other shots missed and what club the used, and this week after week and year after year.
bill

[captglover]

Re: Dave Pelz - best tip....

Well, said Bill.

Pelz outlines the path to perfecting one's short game in his Pyramid of Learning (Fig. 1.61 -SG Bible). While it looks like a long advertisement for his products, it is really a road map for getting the most out of his system. You go as far as you wish/can affford. Most players will only work on the bottum one or so levels. And for most of us, that might be the best return for the money/time. But if you are working towards going Pro, or have the passion, time and money, you can work further up the pyramid.

The interesting part is that he doesn't suggest the Short Game Clinic as an alternate first level - you know, "If you don't have the patience for working through the book, then come get the hands-on, short-version done in a day"... His first tier is reading and "intellectually understanding" the book. Then watch videos and listen to course-oriented audio tapes, THEN attend a clinic.

If you go to a clinic for $375 and haven't done your homework of reading and trying everything you can to understand and practice what is in it, then you are not getting your money's worth in the Clinic. But I imagine his instructors are skilled enough to fine tune your understanding and practice of the system with feedback during the clinics.

Someday I hope to attend a clinic, but as much as I have improved in my short game, really understanding the book will take me a good while longer. (I'm taking it with me to Mazatlan on vacation, should get some quality reading in there!)

BTW, as a personal anecdote, the reason I started working on the Pelz system was because 100 yds to green - was the worse part of my game. I would, several times in a round, whack a beautiful drive on a par 4 to within 20-50 yards of the green, and then literally score a bogey on these holes! Very frustrating, especially as my putting is pretty good. I can say that working the 4x3 wedge system, using a small laminated chart of the distances for those clubs in my pocket, my short has REALLY improved. I had 50 yd shot after my drive on a par 4 the other day, looked at my chart, decided on a 9:00 SW, hit it like I'm supposed to, and stuck it 5 feet from the pin! I never used to do that.

I actually use 5 wedges . My PW is 46º, so I also have a 50º GW, 55º SW, 60º LW and a 64º XW. When I first played back in the 70'S a 46º club was a 9 iron, so the PW used to be what a GW is now - one of the results of "getting more distance" out of new irons (by changing the loft in the sets). I find I really don't use the XW much, so if I find I miss one of my long irons, I'll drop XW. I'd still be using 4 wedges...

[BrianW]

Re: Dave Pelz - best tip....

Captglover,

I purchased the SGB and the PB after reading some quotes from Bill Reed on this site. I am an experienced golfer but these books have really improved my short game by making me understand clearly why certain techniques work and others don't.

I have now started to get many pitch shots within an 8 feet diameter of the pin (actually dropped one right on to it this weekend) My chipping has been good but my technique is more reliable now. The same with putting, I rarely three put anymore by good lag putting on longer putts.

I guess I am a bit of a golf technique junkie and have read many publications on golf but I would gladly recommend these books to others, along with:

Hogans 5 lessons.
Nick Bradley's "7 Laws of the Golf swing".
"The Swing Factory" by Steve Gould, David Wilkinson, and William Sieghart

[bill reed]

Re: Dave Pelz - best tip....

hi brian
great to hear that your games improving you do wonder why you never thought of it lol, i thought i knew a lot about the shot game and putting till i read dave plez books and then realised i had only touched the surface. i have learned so much more from his books than any of the books i have read before, hogans fundementals being the only other book i keep going back too.
i think his (plez) clock systen on the greens has change the way i play onto the green now and like you i dont 3 putt very often and i get so mad with myself now if i do as it is mostly because i am on the wrong time on the clock face and have a harder putt. my short game is getting better too but i know i can do better and will if i work harder at it in the next fow months.
bill

[homer333]

Re: Dave Pelz - best tip....

Listen i do not think pelz is an evil monster but i certainly question his motives----i agree that even if he could care less about your golf game doesnt really matter if he is delivering you the product----it doesnt really matter whats in his heart if what hes selling is good----ive been to a short game clinic here in chicago---i was unimpressed-----i have his books---yes there is some good stuff in them---i wouldnt say the guy has nothing good to offer----his straight back straight through putting method is flawed in my opinion--the human body doesnt work like that---the putter has a swing plane like the rest of our club and technically i believe you want to swing your putter on plane as well-----do you have to -NO - you can do it pelz's way but you will have to work pretty hard to do so---not allowing the forearms to rotate is completely unnatural---can you learn to do it ---absolutely would i teach that no way---most pga instructors will agree that the putting works on an arc not straight back and straight through-----mechanically it sounds easier but the human body doesnt work that way----however you could learn to do it that way------i dont agree with pelz on his putting method at all---but its my opinion---if you like what hes saying try it out--it could work for you-----heres the problem with going to a golf school---after you get back lets say youve been to a pelz or any other school---eventually something will go wrong and at that point you will need further instruction and it will get expensive to spend the money and go back again and again until youve got it---its not likely one trip to any golf scool will cure you----and as far as working directly out of a book--that usually doesnt work--for example --you read in a book---"you need to take you hands out of the stroke and hit the ball with rotation"(standard 80 yard wedge shot lets say)---now when you go and practicing trying to do that how do you know you are doing it correctly?--- ----what you think is proper rotation may be improper execution on your part---words paint images in our brain but how do we know we are doing it correctly -----my point is you need a good instructor to watch you and if need be video so you can be sure----also you may need to see your instructor more than once---maybe twice or more until you get it----trying to cram alot of information at a golf school is hard to do ---we tend to forget certain things----however if you have the money and you enjoy doing it that way have at it---you can learn from golf schools but its better in my opinion to seek out a good instructor and work with him or her as much as possible until your able to make the changes in your game----whether it be full swing or shortgame-----there are some very good pga instructors out there--for sure-----ask around ---reputations follow people----

[bill reed]

Re: Dave Pelz - best tip....

hi homer
just one point, how many teaching pros teach putting day to day and how many know half of what dave plez has learned about putting. in his book and on tv he says there are diffrent ways to putt but "HE" thinks the pendulum swing works best of the 5 swing types he talks about but the best swing type he says is the one i use and thats standing facing the hole with the broom handled putter from my right shoulder down my right side, my right arm hanging down and my left hand at top of putter on my right shoulder, then all i do is swing my right arm only as i do when i'm walking.
if it work then do it.
bill

[homer333]

Re: Dave Pelz - best tip....

Bill --thats a great way to putt---nothing wrong with that----in his book he talks about the straight back and thru---thats what i was talking about----at his schools that what they teach you----on tv he describes other ways but trust me he believes stronger in the straight back straight through without any face rotation----he wrote a whole book on it---he says you can putt many ways but he is totally biased to his ideas of how a putting stroke works----ever see his putting robot perfy?????

[homer333]

Re: Dave Pelz - best tip....

Listen my main point is some of his stuff is flawed--not all of it---the books are ok but there no level of personalization---people go to these schools that cost alot of money---you go home and and he could care less he got your money----if you want long term gains you are better off working with a good instructor who knows what hes talking about--and after you find him or her you may need to go every week or two until youve got it----i dont think in one week at his school will radically change your short game---maybe im wrong its just an opinion----ive heard negative things about pelz from some very prominant instructors---so im even more biased------i firmly believe all he cares about is making his money---i dont think his heart is in the right place----a good instructors cares about your game-----just my opinion -----steve

[homer333]

Re: Dave Pelz - best tip....

hey captain glover i am quite aware people that sell things want to make money----you go give your 3 or 4 grand to pelz----or by his books i doubt youll be able to translate his words into your swing and if you can my hats off to you-----i would say its a much better idea to go see a good pga teacher whoever that might be in your area and work it out that way---enjoy!!!!!