Dave Pelz - best tip....

[captglover]

Re: Dave Pelz - best tip....

Steve,

I appreciate your opinion. Different things work for different people. That is the great, and frustrating thing about golf, there is no "one answer". There are many paths to greatness, or Hogan, Nicholas and Palmer would have swung the same way!

My problem was just the opposite of yours, I've had a couple of lessons from PGA pros and was very dissapointed. I have read enough about the golf swing to be able to "converse" in the theory, I also used to teach another form of sport/movement for 30 years, so I know the teaching of physicality pretty well. These pros said some of the strangest things, and it was obvious to me that they were feeding me some "cookie-cutter" technique that they gave to the guy they saw 10 minutes before. It scared me off teaching pros for awhile, and I just stuck with trying to figure my own problems out.

I finally found a pro that some people at my range recommended, a Korean gentleman, who got it right. A half hour with him and I had 8 things to work on that were about "me" and not about someone else's swing. And they worked too! Only one thing he said was controversial, (compared to conventional theory) and that was, I'm sure, to fix a specific fault I had. Harvey Pennick might not agree with his piece of advice, but it cured my problem.

I was lucky I found a good pro, but I've sensed there are a lot of golf instructers churning out lessons as if everyone was the same. And many of these folks don't want to teach the short game. They focus on the long clubs on the range. Look at the DVD/videos. Unless the short game is in the title, they give 10-20% of the video time to inside 100 yards. In my case, my mind seems to work like Dave Pelz' because I get his theory and see why it should work for me. Sure, he's sometimes really boring in how he proves things work, but at least I know exactly where he's coming from, and can then "think for myself" when working on he system. If an instructor tells you to use a quicker wrist cock, but doesn't tell you why, then you can't figure it out when he's not there and it goes wrong.

An example is Marshall Smith's book "A Lifetime of Lessons". It is a confusing book for me. He gives you a tip, but doesn't really explain why it should be done that way and what it avoids, etc. I thought I'd get a lot more out of his book, but didn't.

As to putting, I think the arc style of stroke has been the recent popular form of theory. But it wasn't always that way! I remember learning putting from Arnie, and he still believes in a straight follow-through to the hole with the putter head (in-line stroke).

So, to each his own. I just hope most golfers get the chance to find the right teacher for them before they get frustrated and quit.

[bill reed]

Re: Dave Pelz - best tip....

hi homer
i agree thet dave plez does think the straight through system is best and i think its better then the barn door systen of putting. what you dont talk about is the huge amouth of drills in his putting bible and how that would help what ever type of putting system you use. and his chart system on finding out how good you do putt, also his clock system on the greens which also works with any system of putting. i do think he is a refresing change to the number of teachers putting out the same thing over and over and teaching a swing that dont work with every one but they teach it anyway, bob torance said teach the person not the system and i think plez think the same or why would he say if you want to get more consistance then readthe nexy chapter about his way of putting or jump to next chapter and read from then on about drills and green reading.
so he understands not every one will use his way of putting and stick with what they have but still will get a lot from reeding the rest of his book.
plez has a few drills in his book for picking the right putter and swing type that would work for you and does say that an in to in swing does work but not as good a straight to straight.
can i ask you do you know a better book on putting.
on his short game you must agree that his 4 wedge system does work whatever your swing type and his 3x4 systen of having a 7 o-clock, 9 o-clock and 11 o-clock for each club does make it so much easer to hit chips and pitches to that 8 foor target, and helps with picking the right club for the right shot.
there will always be more than one way of thinking about putting and when it comes down to it use what works for you. all the top teaches have people that put them down, leadbeater has more than most but they must being someting right to have the top pros flocking to them for help.
best of luck with your way of putting i'm sure it works good for you but a lot of us were three putting a lot and with plez book now dont three put that often, i go by the results i have got and thats same with my short game think brian is the same, i'm sure you do the same too
cheers
bill

[homer333]

Re: Dave Pelz - best tip....

Just One Point On Pelz's Method Of Putting---i Should Say His Preferred Method ----when We Play Golf We Would Like To Swing The Club On Plane----a Golf Club Moves Lets Say On An Arch--you Do Not Swing Any Club Straight Back And Straight Through----dont Forget This Fact--alot Of Golfers Dont Analyze Or Understand What He Means By Straight Back And Straight Through----some Golfers Thik About Going Straight Back And Straight Through When Actuall They Are Swinging The Putter Head On An Arc Whether They Realize It Or Not----the Putter Naturally Wants To Swing "on-plane"---until We Do Something To Alter This In Many Different Ways------pelz Is Advocating To Literally Move The Putter Straight Back And Straight Through---with The Head Of The Putter Remaining Square To The Line-----this Requires Total Manipulation---dont Believe Me Try This----go To A Floor With Straight Lines On It---or Draw A Straight Line On A Green Or However You Choose To Do It----just Make Sure The Line Is Straight ---make It Maybe 6 Feet Long And Make Some Putting Strokes Where Your Putter Head Stays Exactly Square -----and Doesnt Move Inside Or Outside The Line-----so At Address Your Putter Is On The Line And 90 Degrees To It Also---in Order To Keep The Putter Moving Exactly On That Line And Not Have The Face Rotate Slightly Open And Close Is Difficult-----what Will Happen Is You Ll Engage So Much Muscle In Your Shoulder It Will Be Even Harder To Keep Your Body Still---see I Can Build A Robot To Do Anything But The Human Body Has Over 200 Bones And 600 Muscles----the Plane Is The Key To Full Swing And Shortgame----why Would We Want To Do Something Our Bodies Were No Designed To Do------now Could Someone Putt Like This---sure------you Can Do Whatever You Want-----but If I Was Gonna Spend Time Learning Something I Would Want To Follow Something That Made Sense Technically------swining The Putter On Plane Is Nothing New----most Of The Tour Pros Are Doing This-----if You Must Experiment And Try It Pelz's Way And Decide For Yourself-------golfers Are Strange We Can Learn To Do Anythinh Wrong Or Right-----let The Swing Plane Be Our Master From Driver To Putter---

[slater170]

Re: Dave Pelz - best tip....

hi homer
i agree thet dave plez does think the straight through system is best and i think its better then the barn door systen of putting. what you dont talk about is the huge amouth of drills in his putting bible and how that would help what ever type of putting system you use. and his chart system on finding out how good you do putt, also his clock system on the greens which also works with any system of putting. i do think he is a refresing change to the number of teachers putting out the same thing over and over and teaching a swing that dont work with every one but they teach it anyway, bob torance said teach the person not the system and i think plez think the same or why would he say if you want to get more consistance then readthe nexy chapter about his way of putting or jump to next chapter and read from then on about drills and green reading.
so he understands not every one will use his way of putting and stick with what they have but still will get a lot from reeding the rest of his book.
plez has a few drills in his book for picking the right putter and swing type that would work for you and does say that an in to in swing does work but not as good a straight to straight.
can i ask you do you know a better book on putting.
on his short game you must agree that his 4 wedge system does work whatever your swing type and his 3x4 systen of having a 7 o-clock, 9 o-clock and 11 o-clock for each club does make it so much easer to hit chips and pitches to that 8 foor target, and helps with picking the right club for the right shot.
there will always be more than one way of thinking about putting and when it comes down to it use what works for you. all the top teaches have people that put them down, leadbeater has more than most but they must being someting right to have the top pros flocking to them for help.
best of luck with your way of putting i'm sure it works good for you but a lot of us were three putting a lot and with plez book now dont three put that often, i go by the results i have got and thats same with my short game think brian is the same, i'm sure you do the same too
cheers
bill

hi bill
is the dave plez you refer to the same guy as dave pelz the golf guru

[captglover]

Re: Dave Pelz - best tip....

Steve, I think you're missing the point on Pelz' putting.

His method actually IS a natural way to move the putter through the strike zone, if you commit to his method. He uses the shoulders as a pendelum, The arms and wrists are static, and even though the putter head is out beyond the pendelum, the force that moves the putter should move in a straight line, and so should the putter head. If your arms hang straight down and you move only at the shoulders, and you have the correct cant in your posture, then the hands will move on a straight line, as will the putter. Not for 180º, but certainly through the stike zone.

Yes, the golf swing arcs naturally... because the forearms rotate and the hips swivel. That's part of the golf swing. But there is no rotation or swivel in Pelz' putting. The lower body is quiet, the arms and hands are neutral and solid. Only the shoulders are supposed to move. Using his techniques properly, the putter head should move on a straight line. Now if you mess it up and throw in some leg moves, or arm or hand action, then the putter will go off line, but not if you practice it to get it right.

Of course those who use his system don't strike every putt perfectly, even if we practice a lot. But there is a lot more room for error in a swing that arcs. With so many moving parts, there is more opportunity for the body to throw off the exact angle of the putter face as it strikes the ball. When arc putters are "in the zone" they do very well, but when they aren't feeling it, they are inconsistant. The point of Pelz' work is to take out as many variables in the swing as possible. The more repeatable your stroke the better your putting.

Of course you get to pick your poison.

But what those of us who believe in Pelz' methodology are trying to get across, is that while his method may not be right for you, it is based on solid, proven, repeatable logic. It is a very tight set of theorem, not just some guy's ideas which got famous and now he's a guru. You don't get to be a guru and end up being picked by all the other instructors nationally as one of the top teachers in the US, if you were lucky, or have a great personality.

His method is just that, a scientific method, it is the dry, observable, documentable facts. He's not saying you'll make all your putts using his way, he's saying that using his method you'll miss less putts. Just like he says with Phil - "I show him the percentages of the shots, he decides which one to hit".

I personally don't want everyone to use his method, it would mean never getting into one of his classes or maybe paying more for them. But for those members of the list who are curious about his techniques, I'd like them to check it out to see if it works for them. It's OK to say it doesn't work for you, he even accepts some people won't want to putt his way, but, for the sake of those who are undecided, try not to pass judement as to whether his theories are sound or not, especially as you seem to have partial understanding of the material.

If a preson agrees with his science, and strives to make it work, it will make them a better golfer. If it strikes a person as wrong, they can leave it alone.

[homer333]

Re: Dave Pelz - best tip....

LISTEN Ive intentinally tried to do it pelz way---i found it didnt help--i find an on plane stroke to fit me better---he calls it a screen door method---what it is is an on plane method--swing the putter like its designed---i would say 90 percent of the tour is doing this---ive witnessed nationwide and pga tour players practicing doing this----however of course if you feel its simpler or gives you a mechanical advantage---go for it-----im just ultimately saying you have to throw away natural body movements to force it straight back and straight through---it can be done this way----one thing pelz calls the screen door method paints the wrong picture---a putter working on plane lets say for a 20 foot putt onLY "OPENS" slightly---a screen door is a little extreme-----SWINGING THE PUTTER "ON PLANE"---IS TOTALLY NATURAL"--------OK IM BIASED----

[tenaciousdee]

Re: Dave Pelz - best tip....

I will agree with PROWLSTA about the high hands finish. I use it and it works wonders, though my playing partners refuse to use it when I recommend it. I think they may feel I might be trying to have a bit of gamesmanship with them. I like Pelz pitching and chipping tips although hit putting seems to me to be too analytical with exception of the 17 inch rule past the hole.

Tenaciousdee

[bill reed]

Re: Dave Pelz - best tip....

hi
in plez book the putting bible, he covers so much more than just the types of putting strokes and i think there is so much there to help every one even the barn door type putters, he does go into it very deep but there are a lot of tips and drills that help whatever type of putting style you have.
bill

[millenniumcow]

Re: Dave Pelz - best tip....

Hi guys,

Clarification please ... If you have 4 wedges in your bag which club do you dispense with to fit it in ? Or does the "4 x 4" wedge system consider your 9 iron as a "wedge"?

As to the putting theory, I think it comes down to preference and practice. my putting style is virtually all wrist, but it works for me better than all of the other theories, because its comfortable and I am practicing a lot. So I think ... enjoy!

Have fun guys!

[bill reed]

Re: Dave Pelz - best tip....

hi
most drop the 2/3 irons and add 2 wedges, some only add one wedge to the s/wedge and p/wedge and use a 3 wedge system.
bill

[BrianW]

Re: Dave Pelz - best tip....

Hi guys,

Clarification please ... If you have 4 wedges in your bag which club do you dispense with to fit it in ? Or does the "4 x 4" wedge system consider your 9 iron as a "wedge"?

As to the putting theory, I think it comes down to preference and practice. my putting style is virtually all wrist, but it works for me better than all of the other theories, because its comfortable and I am practicing a lot. So I think ... enjoy!

Have fun guys!

I carry a LW/SW/GW and PW. I added the GW and LW and removed my 3 and 4 iron. I use a 7, 5 and 3 fairway wood for anything over a 5 iron. It's just a matter of deciding how important wedges are for your game under 100 yards verses what you need in the longer game.

[millenniumcow]

Re: Dave Pelz - best tip....

I'd happily toss one of my fairway woods to add an extra wedge. My fairway woods are not my favourite ... I might make better use of them as garden stakes.

Thanks for the advice (BTW = I gather GW is 64 degrees, and LW or lob wedge is 60. What does the G in GW stand for (excuse my ignorance)).

Cheers.

[BrianW]

Re: Dave Pelz - best tip....

GW is a Gap Wedge, sometimes known as an Attack wedge it sits between a Pitching and Sand wedge and would be around 52 Deg loft. A Lob Wedge around 60 deg. You can get a an X wedge that is around 64 deg but I find these too lofted for me.

[captglover]

Re: Dave Pelz - best tip....

I currently use:
Driver, 3 wood, 7 wood, 5,6,7,8,9, PW, GW, SW, LW, XW, Putter.

The PW is 46º it's like what a 9 Iron used to be. I use the XW least, but it's fun to have occassionally. 64º wedges are hard to find, so I had an inexpensive Acuity 60º wedge, which I grinded some bounce off it and had it bent to 64º.

I might swap out the XW for a 4-Hybrid.

[Scragger63]

Re: Dave Pelz - best tip....

64° Lob wedges on rare occasion can be dangerous tools...

I have seen a fellow, after shortsiding himself behind a narrowish pot, in trying to get the ball up and down really soft over the pot he takes a fullish slow swing with his 64° wedge way open, the ball flew up almost vertically, narrowly missing his head in his follow through......

Hell of a way to inflict a 2 stroke penalty on yourself I think...

Cheers.