Re: Interesting read

hi Brain
the thing i notice is how the right elbow is so much lower than the left at impact compared to address and all have the right elbow still bent,
Trevino looks to be the only one with both arms extended coming into he ball but that may be the angle.
cheers
bill

Re: Interesting read

Hi Guys,

Just so you know, I have been in the bodywork industry for the past 13 yrs rehabilitating injuries and postural conditions. So please understand that my comment come with education and experience about the human body.

The guy who wrote that article is extraordinarily uneducated about human movement. He may be very experienced in playing golf, maybe even teaching people how to play, but as far as anatomy goes he has got it wrong on many levels. So I wouldn't give it a lot of time and take it with a grain of salt. Isn't it funny how when someone starts quoting anatomy with what they write about it suddenly sounds like it is of much greater value.

The one thing I did notice in his examples of "grippers" was that it is the same elbow position advocated by Jim Hardy for a one plane swing. One of the other characteristics of the one plane swing is "passive arms". So I don't understand where he gets this idea of cumulated trauma in the arms from. I have not been involved in golf long enough to be able to tell you if all those people he quoted have a one plane swing or not but maybe someone else can comment.

Also myself being new to golf, as yet I have not encountered someone with the "yipps" yet. I am very interested to personally work with someone to get a better insight, but I suspect it involves the nervous system far more then the musculoskeletal system.

Anyway thats my rant.

Christopher

Re: Interesting read

Far too technical for me at this point.

I'm desperately trying to improve my twatting skill - and get fully out of the mechanic's shop!

Re: Interesting read

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Re: Interesting read

That's not quite what he is saying. He shows a number of golfers that bring their arms and hands back to the same position at impact they had at address using the strength in their arms to hold the club back, he shows that others let their arms extend out and up and return the clubface by lifting the spine angle. He explains that the skill to do this by spine lifting is difficult and needs very good coordination. He also suggests that the former creates problems with the tendons and this can later create problems with putting.

I know that many Golfers suffer with elbow and forearm problems like tennis elbow, and get back injuries, many good golfers also suffer with the Yips. I have personal experience that a one plane swing makes it easier to return the arms, hands and clubface back to the original plane and reduces stress on the back and arms.

I think the previous two put downs are not properly addressing the subject matter. As I say I am pretty neutral at the moment but can see that some of the article statements have an amount of merit.

Re: Interesting read

Ben,

Try 3skills twatting then, it's designed to get the mechanics out of your head.

Re: Interesting read

hi Brian
he says they the bring there arms back to the same position at impact as at address but as i said early all have there right elbows lower than there there left at impact but there in line at address so how are they the same if there diffrent.
if the club was pulling such force then the right arm would want to straiten quicker would it not.
i understand what he's saying but the examples he uses don't natch what he says well not for me anyway.
cheers
bill

Re: Interesting read

Bill,

The shaft returns on the same plane as address, the arms will not be exactly the same position in a two plane swing but closer in a one with the hand position very similar. Just look at the one plane swing of Moe Norman, he kept the shaft and his arms very similar. To do this in a one plane swing you have to extend your arms out in line with the plane of the shaft at address.

I am trying to keep the discussion to the subject matter and not small discrepancies of arm position.

Re: Interesting read

hi Brian
he does talk about the arms of Hogan, Snead and Jack not being the same and then says Trevino and Tiger have there arms the same at both impact and address but all the clips i have of Trevino he has his right elbow broken and below his left and not in line, he makes out the Hogan and co are giving into the force but Tiger and Trevino are not, from the clip i see of Tiger and Trevino the don't have there arms in line and every pro i have seen has there club shaft very close to the same at impact and address i would like to see some examples of top pros with there shafts not in line to believe that any one does play like that.
i do think it does have a lot to do with the subject matter as he makes a point if it in his piece.
its maybe having studied Trevino so long when someone say he does something that i have not seen in all my books and study then i take what they say with some mistrust. in Trevino's book "I can help your game" there are many pictures of him and all have the same low elbow to the hip that Hogan and Snead have in the pictures posted in the link. i have seen no pictures other than the one he showed where his arms were both in line and i am sure that is only because of the angle of the picture,
the low elbow it part of the Trevino system and not having your elbows the same as at impact and setup as he says.
he also bases the whole think on this set up so if he is wrong abort Trevino and his arms in line then also his whole reason is also flawed.
the elbow in front of the hip is one of the musts in the Trevino swing and if it is bent to the hip i can not be inline with the left arm and falls into the same set up as Jack, Hogan and Snead.
i don't know enough about Tigers swing to comment on if he does or does not do as the guy says.
cheers
bill

Re: Interesting read

Bill,

Here are some examples: We are talking of returning the shaft on the same plane as address. Some do some don't, I cant see what the argument is?

http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/Go...standingup.jpg
http://www.theefficientgolfer.com/im...-addrs-utl.jpghttp://www.theefficientgolfer.com/im...pact-utl-f.jpg
http://www.theefficientgolfer.com/im...own-line-f.jpghttp://www.theefficientgolfer.com/im...pact-dtl-f.jpg

Re: Interesting read

hi Brian
in the two pictures of Trevino you will see his head is lower in the second picture and not higher so he is not standing up he is bending his knees and going lower, in the pictures of hogan his head has not moved so he has not stood up but stayed the same hight. he said both are gripper and Trevino gets his hands lower at impact and Hogan get his hands higher at impact. i don't think both are swinging to try and counter the force but swing to what way they grooved there swing.
Trevino has always dipped as he gets to impact and does this with his hips slid and push out of his left knee.
Hogan comes into the ball on a diffrent plain due to his hips slid and the push of his right knee. both use a diffrent system to get the club to the ball.
Hogan swing around but Trevino pushes his hands away from the body, with Trevino pushing every shot then he must let the force work more with him than say Hogan as Hogan has to started to pull the club around where Trevino pushes the club more away from his body and comes from more inside.
the point I'm trying to make is Trevino and Hogan and Snead are so diffrent why do they end up with the yips and why do not all top golfers have it. all top golfer i have seen have the bent right elbow that he says is fighting the force but not all gofers get it and often a change of putter gets rid of it like Bernard Langer, so it it was damage to the muscular fiber then why would a change of putter help.
I'm sorry but what he says does not seem to match what i see and know and only Moe Norman swung on the same plain on backswing and downsing all other had of a change of plain due to there hip turn and leg movement and the way the right elbow drops to the hips on the start of the down swing.
i also don't remember Trevino having the yips i always thought it was because he was just no really good a putting as his stats are 30 putt on average for his years playing.
cheers
bill

Re: Interesting read

Bill,

It's not about lifting the head, its about lifting the arms and torso with the head crouched. If you look at the pictures they show you. There are three situations here with the hands, they start out extended and stay extended as in the one plane swing, they start out hanging down and are held back by arm strength to keep the club on plane like gripping or they start hanging down and the hands and arms lift to a steeper angle.

The picture of Travino shows him returning the shaft to a similar angle as it was at address, there can be no argument with that, the same with Snead and Hogan. If you look at Nicklaus and many others they create a completely different angle at impact and that can only happen by changing your posture. This is not a discussion only about Travino but about the three principal ways the club is returned to impact.

Many golfers now use a one plane swing as they have found many advantages in its simpler execution and reduced body stress, this guy was not suggesting any of golfers mentioned had a one planer rather that a one planer can return the club on the same plane without the vaguarities of changing posture or stressed muscles and ligaments.

Re: Interesting read

hi Brian
in the picture of jack the club head is still 6 inches or more away from the ball and you will see the jacks left hand it still holding the club open. if you move the picture a couple of frames forward you will see that jack has his hand a little lower and much more like the pictures of Hogan and Snead. i think he has picked pictures that fit his ideas are not really what the players do.
if you take Hogan 2 frames back from the impact picture then his hands are higher and fit what he is saying about Jack as the shaft is not pointing behind the ball but sill many inches behind the ball with the shaft still trailing the hands.
sorry Brian but i don't go along with what he says. you could use the same picture and say the force makes you bend lower just as much as he says it makes you stand up.
you said three ways to bring the club back? i must of missed one as i only saw Grippers and no-Grippers.
cheers
bill

Re: Interesting read

And with all that has gone into this discussion, you have missed my point.

The anatomy and physiology he has described is BS. If he was talking about a neurological condition my comments would be very different but he isn't. He, like a lot of lay people take small fragments of medical information, without understanding the whole, and assume that it fits into any condition they care to frame it with. This is wrong. Even with people who have medical training sometimes get surprised by the results they get from studies because it runs counter to current logic or popular belief.

The time it would take to poke all the holes in his theories(and there are many), in a way that you guys would understand would take too much space and way too much of my time, which could be better spent discussing something more relevant to this great game.

Christopher