Re: Interesting read

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Re: Interesting read

When the club is swung the forces generated will cause it and the arms to be pulled away from the body, if the arms hang loosely down at address then the clubface will move out causing heel or shanked shots unless the force is countered or allowed for. There are those (Few) that use muscular effort to keep the club in the same address plane. Those that bring the hands and shaft to a steeper plane and those that use a one plane swing where the arms are pre-extended at address and maintain the shaft on the same plane. That's the three

Re: Interesting read

Hi Brian
sorry but i don't buy that, as you swing your driver down to the ball there and many forces at work, the bend in the shaft the delay in your wrists all change the force to some extent and your body happens to measure all these and adjusts as required and all in a few milliseconds.
every time you change your club you would have different feeling and forces to work with and you do all this without realizing all the complected adjustments that your hands and arms are doing and doing this with a light grip so you only grip the club hard enough for the club not to turn in your hands???? and apply that to only the muscles that need to be used in countering the force.
it is my opinion he is wrong with how he works out what happens and he says there is 100lbs of force but it only happens for a slit second so you don't notice it but even for a slit second you would need to have a really tight grip at hold to to as he says a "sack of cement".
you said that the force pulls the arms away from the body but the force don't start to take effect till the hands are below the hips and the club started to straiten out so how does the muscles know to pull back if your already well into your swing plane, the force is in the hand to below the waist and only when the club starts to catch up with the hand if the force applied to the club head.
in "the golf machine" it explains the forces a lot better and how and where they are applied.
cheers
bill

Re: Interesting read

You have not posted any information of yourself in your personal profile so I cannot see anything relating to your personal or professional experience.

I have played golf for many years and know a lot of golfers, including some that have played at high levels. Two PGA Professionals I know both suffer from the Yips and have to use belly putters, is this a coincidence? I have personally known many other golfers who suffer from tennis elbow, shoulder and wrist problems, some of them have had cortisone injections and surgery, I have suffered from tennis elbow myself due to golf.

Please don't patronise me or others, if you have some input to the subject and wish to comment then please do so, otherwise it would be better that you didn't suggest others were talking BS or we may not be able to keep up!

If you think that muscular tension is not used by some in controlling the club on plane then look at Trevino's forearms in this picture and note the way his muscles are flexed.

http://www.theefficientgolfer.com/im...pact-utl-f.jpg

Re: Interesting read


Bill,

When the arms have been hung straight down and loose at address it will be virtually impossible to return them to this same position at impact, the arms will no be able to get back if the grip is loose and the arms relaxed, the arms in this condition will have to extend out due to the forces created with a near 100 mph swing. Compensations will have to be made by either changing the angle of the shaft with the hands and body or by muscular resistance. OK, you don't believe that so I cant see that further discussion with you on the point will be productive, lets just agree that we disagree on this one.

Re: Interesting read

Hi Brian
Trevino left forearm is like that because he is left handed and he hits the ball with his left hand, he feels like he hit with the back of his left hand and like you said he does power through with the left hand, it is also very good just playing with only his left hand and says he had hit thousands of balls that way and the right hands just along for the ride. he hits almost as far with his left hand as he does with both.
is the yips not as much to do with the mind as it has to do with the body. i think many players get what they call the yips and it down to the mind but i think there are some that its down to problems with feel and control in the body.
don't think there has been enough research done on the whys and wheres of the yips to really know the cause and if its in the mind or the body.
cheers
bill

Re: Interesting read

Bill,

My main point is about the way the arms are set at address and impact and what needs to be done to counter the swing forces. OK, yips may be a physical, neurological problem or maybe both. As you say, who really knows.

Re: Interesting read

hi Brian
i don't think i have make myself clear to why i don't believe this, it not as you have just said about muscles resistance it how he put this down to how it happens and how that in "grippers" you will get the yips and "no-grippers" wont. i don't agree to how he sees the difference, the two pictures you showed of Hogan and Trevino do come back very close to how thay started but the right elbow is lower than the left and still bent as is the right wrist so it would mean that most of any resistance must be taken up in the left arm or at least a lot more would you not agree.
if your a two plane swinger then you will stand taller and your hands are higher at address a one plane swing who will have his arms drooped more as he bends the spine more at address and you get the same effect as grippers and no-grippers in the impact zone.
the two plane swing comes in with higher hands and a shaft that is more upright than a one plane swinger who's hands are lower and comes in with the but of his club looking at his belt not few inches below his chest.
cheers
bill

Re: Interesting read


Bill,

No, I dont see it that way, quite the opposite. A two plane swinger has his arms hanging straight down below his shoulders and a one plane swinger holds his arms perpendicular to his chest so they are more in line with the shaft at address and impact. The article shows that at the end.

Re: Interesting read

hi Brian
the only one i have ever seen swing like the pictures at the end are Moe Norman. the two plane swinger stands taller and has his hands under his chin, the one plane swinger is more under the eyes if you stand and move you hands forward two inches the hardly change in hight but if you drop your shoulders your hands drop a couple of inches and you also push your ass out more. the pictures he uses at the end have the golfer elbows out past his face and no golfer plays like that with a one plane swing unless your copying Moe.
cheers
bill

Re: Interesting read

Now who is being patronizing?

I already posted further back in the thread a bit of my background and experience, but I tell you what. How about I meet you half way? You spend the next 13yrs studying medicine and then I'll spend the couple of hours putting the post together to explain all the holes in his theory at the colleague to colleague level(not the teacher to student level where I also have to fill in the background so you understand the point I am making).

As for muscle tension, I never said there wasn't any. There has to be a certain amount of muscle tension to do anything but it doesn't automatically mean it is going to be an injury.

If you want to compare apples and oranges start looking a little further afield then just golf for strains that are applied to the human body. Look at builders for instance, large incidence of low back pain, then look at office workers, large incidence of low back pain?????? Very different circumstances wouldn't you say? Muscle strain is not the only reason people get pain, it can be a reason, but not always.

Now the problem I have with this guy is the facts he is painting are not true ie. He talks of the contraction of the external oblique causing a change in spinal angle...... Well the FACT is that the internal oblique is neurologically tied to the opposite external oblique for the rotational movement. So when one contracts, they both contract.

Spinal angle in this case is an unconscious choice made in the brain according to the task that it is being presented within the conscious parameters it has been given.

And lets not even get me started on them being paper thin. I have played with these in cardavers. They are thin, but not paper thin. I would also say with a golfer they would thicken up in response to the activity like any muscle. So it would be far from paper thin.

Now one of the big rules I have for my clients is if they are starting a new sporting activity go and get lessons. The reason for this is faulty mechanics, and inappropriate or no muscle conditioning leads to the majority of injuries in the non contact sports.

I don't need more work, I have enough trouble keeping up with the unlucky ones so please pass on this golden rule to your friends and family.

Christopher

Re: Interesting read

In the interests of discussing the stuff in the article that's golf related:

Golfers move their shoulders away from the ball during their downswing by ‘standing up’, or decreasing their spine angle, as seen down the line.

This should really state that poorer golfers/ball strikers do this. Although he does explain later that golfers that do do this have to spend hours practicing it to keep it manageable. There are a fair few on Tour that do this. They're not the best ball strikers.

Some well-known golfers came up with what they thought was a better solution.
Don’t let the arms and club extend.
That’s right. Don’t go with the force. Don’t let the (centrifugal) force be with you.
Fight it every step of the way.

This is where this guy starts to go way off track with the golf stuff.

Sam Snead, who won more PGA titles than any other golfer, was a gripper. Here is Snead at address and impact from down the line. Snead is using his biceps and brachialis muscles to keep his right elbow from extending at impact, which enables him to keep his club close to the position it was at address and keep a fairly constant spine angle. In other words, by contracting the muscles of his arm and forearm, he prevents centrifugal force from straightening his arm and club.



Sam Snead learned a set of swing movements (of both body and arms) that allowed him to return the club to the same shaft angle he had at address. It's what made him an awsome ball striker. Contrary to this bloke thinking his bent right arm is preventing something from happening, he's actually adding to the centrifugal force he's creating. What Snead hasn't done is what many people do. That is to straighten his right arm too early in the downswing. He's adding to his power by "punching" through the ball with his powerful right arm. It's why he plays golf right handed. Simple eh? Would you punch someone with a straight arm? Sneads ball knew it was hit.

It's the same reason Moe Norman was straight but not long. Same shaft angle at address and impact, but no benefit of the right arm bend.

The pictures below show Trevino from up the line. Look at the muscles of his left forearm and you can see how violently he is contracting them to overcome 100 lbs. of centrifugal force.

Trevino's forearm is just as contracted at address as at impact. The change in angle and light casts shadows where they were'nt before.

If you know your golf history, you know that Snead, Hogan and Trevino had more in common than their winning ways.
They all developed the yips.

I'm ignoring this point all together as nobody has proven the physiological or mental causes for the yips. However, as so much of golf is played in the mind, and as Hogan was quized on the subject many times, it is reasonable to put forward that great ball stiking puts pressure on putting to "convert" the good work from tee to green into scoring. Great ball strikers can let their fascination with it lead to despising putting.

To prevent centrifugal force from straightening out your arms and club at impact, you have to strenuously tense and contract your forearm muscles.

To expand on my point as to why the right arm is bent at impact, I am not saying that extension of the arms doesn't occur, but it happens after the ball has gone. Not during impact.

His points about Tiger's spine angle are inconclusive. The photos he uses don't prove anything. The middle picture looks like it was taken at one of the British Opens where we all know he used irons of the tee employing stingers and low trajectories. Getting your hips forward like this can be a way to play these shots. In the last photo, he may be trying to hit a high driver. We just don't know.

And I have absolutely no idea what the drawings in the section entitled "The Golf swing of the Future" are for. Despite anotating them with 25 degree markers, it can clearly be seen that not only has the player straightened his spine angle, but the angle lines drawn on do not even match!

All in all I think this article is a pretty feable effort at explaining something that hasn't been thought through and is actually mostly a cock 'n' bull sales pitch.

Just my opinion.

Re: Interesting read

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Re: Interesting read

Does it come with a rubber suit!

Re: Interesting read

Oh my. I may have to get one, but not for golf.