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Clubbing to elevated/de-elevated greens

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  • #1

    Clubbing to elevated/de-elevated greens

    Hello all, this is my first post. I am 17 (and change) handicap that my pro says should be shooting in the 70's. I'm getting there. I would like to start off with a non-golf quote.

    From Dave Barry's "19 Things That It Took Me 50 Years To Learn":

    13. You will never find anybody who can give you a clear and compelling reason why we observe daylight savings time.

    I have heard many times that you must club up for an elevated green and club down for the opposite. Ken Venturi said it should be 1 club for every 25 feet of elevation change.

    People have tried to explain why this is, but just like Mr. Barry, I'm not convinced. Would anybody care to explain it, ala Denzel Washington (Philadelphia), so a 4 year old can understand it?

    Thanks,

    Hillska
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  • #2
    Re: Clubbing to elevated/de-elevated greens

    Pictures always help....
    Attached Files

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    • #3
      Re: Clubbing to elevated/de-elevated greens

      Greg,

      Thanks for the visual aid. This brings up a couple of more questions.

      As the loft of a club increases, this effect would seem to lessen. That is, a wedge, which travels it's 110 yards and the then drops straight (or nearly straight) down would not really be affected by an elevation change, correct? Could you make another drawing using a P wedge and 9 iron?

      Also, as the elevation change increases, a point of diminishing effect would occur. For example, it seems to me that the most you might ever have to club down would be 2 clubs, because at some point the ball will eventually be dropping straight down, and no extra yardage would be gained.

      Further, on an elevated green, would you not also get a more roll since the ball is coming in more shallowly?

      If my logic is flawed I would appreciate someone pointing out what I have missed.

      Severe elevation changes such as this are rare, but I do have a course near me with a short (120yard) par 3 with an elevated tee of perhaps 30 yards on which, if I club down even 1 club, I am always short.

      Thanks again.

      Comment

      • #4
        Re: Clubbing to elevated/de-elevated greens

        Originally posted by Hillska View Post
        ...as the loft of a club increases, this effect would seem to lessen. That is, a wedge, which travels it's 110 yards and the then drops straight (or nearly straight) down would not really be affected by an elevation change, correct?
        Correct. As you get closer, the more loft you get and the less horizontal shift there is, but you probably never get to a perfect vertical free-fall, except in extreme altitude drops. So a 9i-PW is maybe 15 ft of vertical difference, and PW-SW is maybe 7 ft. (All guesses).

        Originally posted by Hillska View Post
        ...on an elevated green, would you not also get a more roll since the ball is coming in more shallowly?
        Yes...more roll will happen, but not too much more.

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        • #5
          Re: Clubbing to elevated/de-elevated greens

          Not too make a confusing subject more confusing, BUT..lol..you also have to consider where you are hitting from, the tip Venture was giving is not from a tee box, it was from the fairway where hitting to an elevated green, was also hitting uphill, where the club is by definition uphill, has more loft then from a level lie. Hitting from a level lie..Tee box..and the difference in elevation is not near as drastic.

          Example..hitting a normal 8 iron uphill, in effect changes that 8 iron to a 9 iron distance. Take Greg's picture, and tilt it as if hitting uphill and you will see a much more drastic change in flight. Same for downhill. So you must factor in the lie as well, which will have a bigger effect then elevation.

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          • #6
            Re: Clubbing to elevated/de-elevated greens

            Originally posted by GoNavy View Post
            the tip Venture was giving is not from a tee box, it was from the fairway where hitting to an elevated green
            Actually, the tip I saw was in fact a par 3 of 185 yards with an elevated tee, but I quite take your point. The lie will change things to the point where an uphill lie might negate a de-elevated green.

            Venturi did say in his tip that if you were to play in a competition you would want to play a few rounds beforehand so you could zero in on the right club on a particularly pesky hole.

            In this tip (from his "Stroke Savers" series, on a dvd I got from MasterGrip) I thought it was interesting that, after explaining that 185 yards was normally a "big 4 or maybe even a 3" (remember, this was the '70s lol), because the tee was elevated 50 feet he was using a 6, he still went past the hole by a good 5 yards. I once heard Tiger say that gauging elevation changes was sometimes still just guesswork.

            What I need to do is talk to an engineer who plays golf.

            Thanks again for the responses.

            Comment

            • #7
              Just wanted to say hello to everyone

              First time posting here.I'm interested in getting some useful info, I hope this is the right place.Looking to meet new people to exchange info with,so leave me your name.Later,chirurgia estetica .

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              • #8
                Re: Clubbing to elevated/de-elevated greens

                hi
                Dave Pelz has a chapter in his book "the short game bible" all about hitting to elevated greens and greens that are lower, he explains the why and where for's, worth getting it out the library and having a look.
                cheers
                Bill

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                • #9
                  Re: Clubbing to elevated/de-elevated greens

                  Also remember that when clubbing to an elevated green, the ball will land at a more shallow angle, resulting in more roll from the point of landing than in the case of a level green.

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    Re: Clubbing to elevated/de-elevated greens

                    Don't forget to take into account the slope of the green. If it is sloping down hill towards you, a shot, short of the pin is sometimes more preferable. Reason being you will be putting up hill, instead of down hill if you hit the ball too long. Another is pin placement. If it is up front, your normal club for the published distance, regardless of the green's height might work better, since most distances are to the middle of the green. If the pin is in the back, then club selection is even more important. Raised, or lowered greens is just one factor of many when it comes to club selection. GJS

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                    • #11
                      Re: Clubbing to elevated/de-elevated greens

                      A famous pro told me once that an easy rule of thumb is to estimate the number of feet of elevation change and basically add/subtract a yard for every foot of elevation.

                      For example, if I'm 150 from the pin, and there is approximately 10 feet of elevation gain, then choose the club I would use for 160. I have been using this rule even on only modest elevation changes.

                      Its probably not quite that simple, but I have been applying this rule of thumb all summer with amazingly accurate results. I tend to agree that with the loftier clubs, the elevation has LESS of an effect. For example, hitting downhill with my 9 iron, I have found that I subtract the distance using that rule of thumb and come up short. So for loftier clubs I just take maybe 3/4 of the elevation change and convert that to yards. I'm still fine tuning it. Estimating the elevation change can also be interesting, there are many optical illusions at play.

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