Re: Think i may have cracked it????

You're probably right work on this drill



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGtklZJq4BY

Re: Think i may have cracked it????

Hi Burnie 24,

From the description you provide, it seems that the club gets laid off and perhaps you are whipping the club too much inside with your arms.

The video which ben hogan has linked is an excellent one for you. Good one, ben. It's a trademark drill of Leadbetter and all his students, such as Price, Faldo, and others. When he was teaching Wie, she would do that drill in play virtually before every shot.

The drill emphasizes the one-piece backswing, where the arms and body turn in synch, i.e. the arms are not whipping the club inside. I've also been a believer in the setting of the wrists and then the turn of the shoulders to complete the backswing. In my case, I like to cock the wrists even earlier than when Leadbetter does, but that's just personal preference.

The key point in the video, which applies to your situation is to be aware of where the club is during the backswing. Look at where the leading arm is at the halfway back position, it should be about in line with your toeline. As you continue to turn back, check that the butt is pointing to the ground close to the ball/target line; exactly how far from the ball/target line will depend on the club you are using and the steepness of your swing. With your present backswing, you may find the butt points way outside of the ball/target line.

Ted

Re: Think i may have cracked it????

Rolling the wrists and forearms is one of the major errors in creating erratic golf swings, the swing becomes under-plane, the club can get trapped and create an open clubface with poor ball striking. The above video is good, as you are already aware the initial takeaway can affect the whole swing.

Re: Think i may have cracked it????


Actually, let's look at a few things Lead shows us, compared to what Ted's got down.

Lets start with the one piece takeaway. A good one piece takeaway has no arm/hand factor at all. It's one piece because the body is moving the arms. Lead shows us a nice one-piece looking takeaway, however with that crazy amount of wrist set early he's obviously engaging his arms. This is two piece - because you're engaging two pieces (arms and body) to get your backswing started. I don't like a two piece takeaway (more moving parts means more margin for error) and have fought (and still fight) keeping my arms passive. It's the best it's ever been, but I'm still far from completely passive do-absolutely-nothing arms on the takeaway.

My other 'rolling eyes' moment is when Lead says 'let's get into a good position at address' and proceeds to stand very tall and slump his shoulders versus bending at the hips. Nice. Not.

Granted, there's a thousand ways to swing a golf club. But Lead's looks manipulative, restrictive, and ultimately painful.

Re: Think i may have cracked it????

Hi Lowpost42,

Regarding the quick wrist cock, I am a follower of the Dante school, which promotes a very early wrist cock. I have tried the straight arm/club backswing such as Nicklaus, with the late wrist cock for years and I could not do it. I would be thinking so much about taking the club back extended and end up taking the arms back and leaving the shoulders unturned. I would over-reach backwards and then have to lift my arms without the shouders and body turning (so no weight shift, and did not feel wound up). I could not time a natural full break of the wrists as I approached the top, and so I had an incomplete or forced ineffectual cock at the top.

I stumbled upon the Dante teachings and those of other instructors, who still teach his theories, and found that it resulted in for me "a no-thinking required way of swinging the club". I need that, otherwise I tend to be too analyctical, and think about when to do this and how, and so on. I make a very early full cock, so that's out of the way, and then all I have to do is make a one-piece shoulder/body and arm swing to the top, basically to line up my lead shoulder with my back foot (that gets my weight shifted as a result without thinking about it, and gets me to a fully torqued wound up position with pressure on my back instep). Then I can let go with my lower body. Really, there's only one thought in my head, that is the shoulder turn, but that is an automatic feel thing. The rest is predone.

Hank Kuehne and Anthony Kim have much of the same type of swing, as I have studied their swings extensively, although their wrist cock is about the 8 o'clock postition as Lead shows. Mine is earlier. I recently took the idea of lining up the shoulder with the foot from Kim (see video).

http://www.thegolfchannel.com/core.a...&select2=10860

As one would say of Allan Doyle's or Furyk's swing, my swing may not suit everyone. As you say, there are different way to swing and they are all out there. For whatever reasons, one works better than the other for each person. I have more calmness playing with this pre-programmed swing and the results are great. I'm playing as well now as I ever have, and I have less physical problems. My head does not have the swing thoughts buzzing around.

I don't know if this is a fact, but I've always believed the one piece takeaway does not necessarily apply to the arm/club relationship in regard to early or late wrist break. I just took a second to research this, and my first hit was this video with Hank Haney. Unfortunately, to see the whole video, you have to subscribe, but the transcript seems to verify my earlier statement.

Ted

Re: Think i may have cracked it????

It's cool Ted, I used to have an early wrist set too - but for me it promoted dragging the club way inside and getting really armsy with my swing. I ended up so many times just reaching across my chest versus turning back, so I needed something else.

You've touched on a very key idea though - that of playing with the swing you know. I've tried many times to play 'mechanical golf' and it's so hard. You simply can't think your way through the swing AND hit good shots consistently.

My understanding of the definition of a one piece takeaway is that the arms ride along a body turn, versus independend movement of the arms during the takeaway.

I just finished spending the weekend with a biokinetic engineer (although I don't know if she'd call herself that), but she certainly opened my eyes to how the body moves and I've been fully introduced to a swing model that, when performed correctly, is promised to leave me injury free. Based on what I saw, felt, heard, and learned, I can see how it's true. The coolest part was that she knows nada about a golf swing. Nothing about golf instruction. She looks at a golf swing and watches the body move. Watches how and where the joints move, checks weight distribution, corrects things to put the body into positions that don't stress the body. Still functions perfectly as a golf swing, too. I failed to ask her the proper way to throw a club though, so I could still injure myself doing that.

So does this mean that I now claim that there's only one way to swing a club? Nope. Does this mean I believe that there's only one way to swing a club without the threat of injury (either immediate or long term)? Yes. Ironically, when I first started golfing, I had come across her website, but didn't want to pony up the dough (for either her fee or the flight + room + car) to work with her. Dummy. I'd be light years ahead of where I am now. On the plus side, I may get to be 'light years ahead' by this time next year.

Re: Think i may have cracked it????

Hi LowPost42,

My understanding of the definition of a one piece takeaway is that the arms ride along a body turn, versus independend movement of the arms during the takeaway.


I wholeheartedly believe that the arms should be connected to the body too, but what Haney is saying in his video and what I am saying about the early wrist break does not preclude the arms staying connected. It's only that the club shaft is breaking up at the wrists and the arm/body/shoulder turn (one-piece) is getting the club to the top.

Take a look at Kuehne's, Kim's and countless other pro swings on You Tube, which do not have the trademark "Nicklaus" reaching back and delayed wrist cock. Of course, there are many who do have the delayed cock.

I did not say this before, but I think it's a common long drivers' technique to reach reach back. I've seen a lot of the long drivers' doing this. I sense many of your swing thoughts from your other posts seem to have developed from that teaching. Is that possible? Again, there is no problem with that, as we agree there's different ways to flog the club.

Ted

Re: Think i may have cracked it????

I've actually been a rotary student (who has learned to rotate too well!), but yes for the last year I've been reaching back and out with my left arm and shoulder to create width and turn; but these days are over.

The days of a tight rotation with very passive arms, hands, and wrists is upon me.

Re: Think i may have cracked it????

Lowpost,

Are you familiar with Don Trahan's swing? Do you think his swing might prevent injury?

Re: Think i may have cracked it????

Hi jackbean,

There is another thread strictly on Trahan's swing. You should read it. I would think a search for his name will come up with it.

Ted

Re: Think i may have cracked it????

Hi Ted,

Thanks for your reply. I did look at that thread regarding Trahan, and it was very informative. Trahan's swing is good for the back, and it promotes quiet wrists. However, it seems to promote active arms according to my current interpretation, and I wonder that could add to stress.

John

Re: Think i may have cracked it????

Hi jackbean,

I don't have a problem with my back, so I don't have to be concerned about that. So far anyways.

But I do believe that the back, hips and hands are the most susceptible parts of the body in the golf swing. If the arms are swung in concert with the body through the shoulders, I don't see where there could be any stress on the arms. Otherwise, they should be very resilient. It's when the arms are out of synch with the other body parts, that you get chicken winging, tennis elbow and the like. I know because I once had a case of the tennis elbow syndrome from improper golf swings for an extended period.

Ted