Re: My irons shafts are too weak causing ball to hit off of the toe

if your hitting off the toe, stand closer to the ball.

however if your slicing the ball, get a stiffer shaft.

Re: My irons shafts are too weak causing ball to hit off of the toe

Hi Indie,

I originally did not want to answer this, because I was somewhat floored by what the fitter was saying. Frankly, I thought it was a bunch of hooey.

As you can appreciate, none of the members, including myself, can fairly address this without having knowledge of your swing or of your game.

It does, however, seem to me that hitting the ball on the toe is more likely a swing problem/solution than a shaft or lie problem. Also, regarding hitting low, it is true that lofts are less now for irons, but other than the pro lines of irons, most of the other lines (player improvement) of irons also have compensating lower SoG (bottom weighting). Again, hitting low may be a swing problem.

In both cases, hitting off the toe and hitting low, the problem could be loss of spine angle and/or lifting up on your legs. As AGB says, it could be ball position. It could be alignment.

Ted

Re: My irons shafts are too weak causing ball to hit off of the toe

hi
i do agree with AGB and Ted that it sounds more a swing or ball position than a problem with your clubs. have to tried swinging one of your friends clubs to see if you get diffrent results to your ball striking.
i was suprised that he said (the fitter you went to) that he could bend your clubs but it would give you a draw. don't know how bending your clubs would change you hitting of the toe.
does it feel your hitting of the toe or is it the results he got when testing you.
cheers
Bill

Re: My irons shafts are too weak causing ball to hit off of the toe

Hi Bill,

What he was referring to, is when you bend the lie more upright, there is a greater tendency for the ball to be pulled or drawn, depending on the swing path.
This is something you can see, if you place your clubhead on the ground, and raise the club so the heel is off the ground. If you look closely, or use a stick stuck perpendicular to the face with gum, you will see the face point left, when you do this.

I believe this is the same reaction you see when you raise a putterhead from it's normal soled position to where the heel is off the ground. You will see the face close and the putts will be pulled.

The common myth is that the more upright, the toe will hit the ground and opens the face, causing a push. But, the fact is the ball is already been, or is simultaneously being, struck. The caveat being that you are not digging a canal with the strike, in which case the head may well open.

My Ping fitter told me that I would see draws, when I went for my previous Ping Zing fittings years ago, and he bent the head from neutral to 2 degrees upright. He was right about that. Actually, at that time, I had been hitting fades, and that got me hitting straight and draws.

Anyways, Indie's fitter's suggestion about bending the lie to fix the toe hits is questionable.

Ted

Re: My irons shafts are too weak causing ball to hit off of the toe

hi Ted
i see what Indie means now, your changing lie and not changing the angle of the face to be more closed.
understand as i have my Zings 2% flat (orange code) and found going from black code (Ping K1s) to orange Zings gave me a flatter swing plane and my swing went from two plane to one plane with just a change of lie and found it much easier to control my fade.
i have read so ofter clubs like the Zings are so forgiving you cant work the ball but i find it easy. did you find it easy to work the ball with your Zings.
cheers
Bill

Re: My irons shafts are too weak causing ball to hit off of the toe

Hi Bill,

When fitters and players talk about bending clubs, it most often means they are referring to the lie. As you can see from my putter example, it does have an effect of direction. You have also experienced it first hand with your Zing adjustment. When people have their sand wedge lofts adjusted 2 degrees (e.g. 56 to a 58), it's not a major transition. I'm thinking of having my wedges bent.

With V J's much talked about 9 wood ("My other fairway wood is a Callaway Big Bertha Steelhead 9-wood bent 7 degrees open to a 7-wood loft, but it behaves like a 5-wood. I can hit it high and about 240 yards. It's got an Apollo Tour graphite shaft."), I used to wonder how much adjustment he had to make in his swing to compensate for the open face. But with his talent, I guess it's not a major thing. Those pros and close it down, open it, and play 50 yard hooks and slices at will, even off opposing slopes. The other thing I wondered about is how do you bend a short hosel club like the Callaway?

Rich Beam had a bent 7 wood to a 5, I believe, which he used to good effect to win the PGA Championship, but that was a TaylorMade, which has a longer hosel.

Ted

Re: My irons shafts are too weak causing ball to hit off of the toe

When i said hitting off of the toe gentleman I am not shanking the ball.

I am a 12 handi working to single digits (hopefully).....

He taped the bottom of my club...I hit a 5 iron 195....he said 5.5 frequency is too weak for my swing. He moved me to a 6.1 and will bend the clubs upright to improve trajectory and consistency...

As of late I have been hitting the ball with a pretty good draw to a pull or hook. Part of that was due to my right hand being way too strong.

He did have me hit a 6 iron that had the 6.1 shaft in it and i hit it more center with out changing swing other than grip pressure. The ball went higher and straighter....

hope this helps

Re: My irons shafts are too weak causing ball to hit off of the toe

Hi Indie,

You seem to have taken it as a personal attack on your ability. I was only trying to understand the fitting. I hope you will take in the facts as presented. I'm only trying to help, and garbage or not, it's an investment of my time.

Regarding the move to 6.1, that was likely in order, as you seem to have a strong swing, which is getting stronger, and the 5.5 was too soft.

When you say you are hitting it on the toe, I take that as saying you hit the ball on the face out at the toe. I take it that you had impact tape on the face to show you this? No one said anything about shanking, that is a ball hit towards the heel and the hosel.

The tape on the bottom shows what lie you require. The lie affects ball flight direction and trajectory.

1. If you are pulling and pull hooking, as I said in the earlier post, pulling and hooking would become worse if the lie was made more upright. This is a dynamic fitting analysis.

2. According to static fitting analysis, the reason that a fitter may suggest bending to upright is that the tape on the bottom would show the heel of the club bottom was hitting the board. That would say that the clubhead is twisting open and that would result in a push or push slice, so according to the static fitting analysis, the club should be bent upright.

3. The more upright the club is bent, the resulting tendency is to draw/hook which usually have lower trajectory, unless adjustments are made in ball position and swing.

In these cases, it seems that your tendencies to pull and pull hook will not benefit from the bending, and actually will worsen.

What I had getting my head around, originally and still, is I don't see why the bending for your problem, and particularly what it would do with your hitting in the toe.

I can see that the stronger shaft flex is better suited for your swing speed and may make for a straighter and higher flight, because the weaker shaft may have caused the face to shut down and pulled the ball left and down. That must be the effect, although as you know the usual effect is that good players move up to stronger shafts, as their swings get stronger to lower the flight. Your strong right hand action may also have had an influence on closing the face down, and I see you are working on that.

After all this, I figure the shaft change is all you need, and the bending does not make sense.

I also used to have a toe shot problem, and that was mainly from casting with an overly active right side/over the top move.

Good luck

Ted

Re: My irons shafts are too weak causing ball to hit off of the toe

Oh i am fine........I asked the question didn't I?

The reason for the bend is to promote less roll..

ie. i'd rather hit a PW fly it 125 and stop at 130 rather than hit a PW 125 and have it roll to 140.......

Re: My irons shafts are too weak causing ball to hit off of the toe

Hi Indie,

Throughout my previous posts, including my discourse with Bill Reed, I expressed the case that the more upright the lie, the more of a pull and draw/hook it imparts, with a resultant lower trajectory.

When you want to have a ball to go high and come down soft, you would try and hit a fade which usually (without other manipulations) flies high. You can build in a tendency for fades in the club by flattening the lie, and opening the face.

I still don't understand the need for bending.

That's all I'm saying on this matter

Good luck,

Ted

Re: My irons shafts are too weak causing ball to hit off of the toe

Ted

the fitter is changing the degrees loft on the irons due to them being made lower from the factory to promote distance. I would rather have a better trajectory and more consistant yardages than hit the club farther..

does this make sense...perhaps i was misleading the thread on my intentions

Re: My irons shafts are too weak causing ball to hit off of the toe

Hi Indie,

Your posts were misleading. You had been originally talking about the fitter bending the heads more upright, which is a lie issue, and which would create the tendency to pull and pull hook.

Now you are talking about the loft bend to increase height.
That is doable. There is a risk that the club(s) can break, and the fitter would not guarantee that. Also, you should make sure the fitter will make the loft bends, without affecting the lie.

Ted

Re: My irons shafts are too weak causing ball to hit off of the toe

gentleman

i will post the specs on my irons tomorrow...all i can say is a huge dif. between the two shafts....i went to the range today and am hitting piercing shots that still have a nice ballooning trajectory......being custom fit is the way to go