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Seve Ballesteros

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  • Seve Ballesteros

    Not a lot of chatter about him golf-swing wise.

    Anybody have the honour of watching his play? Aybody know about his ball-striking prowess?

  • #2
    Re: Seve Ballesteros

    From what I can recall of Seve was that his real strength was playing imaginative shots, he was great at hitting shots out of the rough and difficult lies. He tended to spray the ball off the tee but his feel game around the green was great.

    Later in his career he worked on swing mechanics and seemed to be on a slippery downhill path from then on, he also had problems with his back in later years.

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    • #3
      Re: Seve Ballesteros

      hi Neil
      watched Seve at the open a couple of times and once at St Andrews when he won the open there. he was up there with the best strikers of the ball, "lee Trevino and Moe Norman."
      Seve also had a great golfing brain and not only saw shots other's didn't but could pull them off too. he started playing golf when a boy and was given a 2 iron, he said he could hit about any type of shot with it, I'm sure he started caddying at the age of 8 his older brother was a caddy and a good golfer too and thats where he got the bug.
      he almost knocked me down at Muirfield on a push bike. i was trying to take his photo and did not move out the way quick enought. i'll try and look out the picture.
      Seve and Bernard Langer did wonders for golf in Europe and i wonder if we would have seen so many great European players today without them.
      cheers
      Bill

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      • #4
        Re: Seve Ballesteros

        post removed
        Last edited by lgskywalker37; 08-08-2009, 02:44 PM.

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        • #5
          Re: Seve Ballesteros

          He was such an instinctive "feel" player, that I don't think studying his swing mechanics would be of much benefit - it would be a bit like studying the way a great writer physicaly moves his pen.
          You could copy it, but . . . .

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          • #6
            Re: Seve Ballesteros

            Thanks for the responses guys. It seems amazing to me that such a great player is not talked of more.

            Regarding his swing, I'm not sure why anyone would question his swing mechanics as not suitable for learning or immitation:

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQI68...om=PL&index=30

            Looks pretty damn perfect to me.

            This video was from the 1986 Masters. The time when Seve appeared to be at the height of his golfing maturity and had been world no.1 for some time.

            Seve didn't start having major issues with his game until the early 1990's, and didn't turn to Mac O'grady until 1994 (they had been friends since their shared tour days, but mid-nineties was the official start of their professional relationship).

            Ironically, Seve's swing in his prime was an almost perfect MORAD effort, so why Seve went to Mac for help is a mystery to me. If he went to him for help with the competitive brain-box, I'm not sure Seve made the correct choice! A more self-defeating competitor, one could not find!

            But as for his swing; simple, effective, powerful and accurate. His driving was wild, but I think that's how he loved to play the game. Mash it off the tee and score with the scoring clubs.

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            • #7
              Re: Seve Ballesteros

              Originally posted by Neil18 View Post
              His driving was wild, but I think that's how he loved to play the game. Mash it off the tee and score with the scoring clubs.
              That's why I said it wouldn't be a good idea to copy him. He is a genius and not a manufactured player, he was famous and loved for playing a risky swashbuckling sort of game that would be suicide for a mere mortal to attempt to replicate.
              His genius was mainly between his ears, incredible artistry, imagination and nerve, it's not really the sort of thing that can be learned.

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              • #8
                Re: Seve Ballesteros

                Originally posted by mariner View Post
                That's why I said it wouldn't be a good idea to copy him. He is a genius and not a manufactured player, he was famous and loved for playing a risky swashbuckling sort of game that would be suicide for a mere mortal to attempt to replicate.
                His genius was mainly between his ears, incredible artistry, imagination and nerve, it's not really the sort of thing that can be learned.
                I understand your point.

                However why would it not be a good idea to emulate artistic genius than instead copy the current trend of manufactured and robotic methods?

                Golf is an art. Playing one's best is almost a mystical experience. The problem people have with emulating someone like Seve is that science can't explain it.

                Go beyond the explicable and you find what others seek in the wrong place, yes?
                Last edited by Neil18; 05-27-2009, 10:30 AM.

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                • #9
                  Re: Seve Ballesteros

                  Yes, I sort of agree with you there, but by definition you CAN'T emulate artistic genius, otherwise it wouldn't be artistic genius surely?
                  You can, however, at least try and emulate the simple robotic swings of a lot of today's players, although I think calling them robotic is a little unfair as the golf swing of an accomplished player is still an athletic move of great grace and beauty (with a few exceptions!) and still beyond the aspirations of mere 14 handicappers like me!
                  I'm just saying you can try to emulate one, but not the other, in much the same way as you can paint by numbers, but not produce a Van Gogh.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Seve Ballesteros

                    Originally posted by mariner View Post
                    Yes, I sort of agree with you there, but by definition you CAN'T emulate artistic genius, otherwise it wouldn't be artistic genius surely?
                    You can, however, at least try and emulate the simple robotic swings of a lot of today's players, although I think calling them robotic is a little unfair as the golf swing of an accomplished player is still an athletic move of great grace and beauty (with a few exceptions!) and still beyond the aspirations of mere 14 handicappers like me!
                    I'm just saying you can try to emulate one, but not the other, in much the same way as you can paint by numbers, but not produce a Van Gogh.
                    We've got two different things here, I guess.

                    1) Seve's swing - no reason why it shouldn't be used as a model. One of the best looking and functioning swings ever.

                    2) The way Seve used his swing - the artistic genius part. Artistic genius is not rare. And it's not only reserved for a mere Godly selected few. We all have it.

                    Some have a bashed up old guitar and don't know how to play it. Some have a bashed up old guitar and play beautifully with it.

                    Seve had a gleaming harp and played it like he was in a fight.

                    So, relating to the above points 1) and 2), one can have the tool, and then there's how it's used.

                    Seve had the tool. The way he used it was unconventional, unrestricted, free and inspired. To me, it seemed he came unstuck when he went against his nature and tried to tame himself. He's clearly a free spirited chap and should have continued to play that way. Great shame. Such are the pressures of the poisonous golfing society, I guess.

                    I bet Van Gogh never painted by numbers.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Seve Ballesteros

                      hi guys
                      i think with Seve learning his golf with his brother's cast off 2 iron. it helped in swing a club at an early age, he played only with a 2 iron for over a year and drove, chipped and putted it till his older brother again passed down some more clubs to him and it was at this time he also started to caddying with his brother. he was then able to walk round a course caddying and watching other golfer play the holes up close.
                      i think helped him to think of the shots he would play when in there posision for a few years before he was let lose on a real golf course.
                      he would lay in bed and see each shot over and over and work out where the guy went wrong and seeing the shot he would play that was better.
                      when he started playing he already imagined the shot he wanted and it was down to hard work for him finding that shot.
                      like many good golfers in the 60s he did not have a teacher other then his brother and his swing was to a large part his own.
                      when he was in his 20s he had a good idea what was possible and what was not and was a excellent judge of what to go for and what to play safe.
                      he was one of the most enthusiastic gofers and seeing the joy on his face when he won the open at St Andrews and his fist punching the air over and over will be a memory i will never forget.
                      wonderful golfer that played and won with the best. when he was starting there was Jack N and Lee T, Tom Watson and G Player, you had H Irwin, also G Norman and N Faldo and a good few others that i could mention. all winning and he had to play against the best and i think the field of top golfers then was much stronger than today.
                      good to hear that he is keeping better and starting to get about more after his opps.

                      here a picture of Seve trying to knock me over when he was on his push bike.
                      cheers
                      Bill
                      Attached Files
                      Last edited by bill reed; 05-27-2009, 11:25 AM.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Seve Ballesteros

                        Originally posted by Neil18 View Post
                        2) The way Seve used his swing - the artistic genius part. Artistic genius is not rare. And it's not only reserved for a mere Godly selected few. We all have it.

                        I bet Van Gogh never painted by numbers.
                        Whoa, hang on - we do NOT all have artistic genius. It IS reserved for the chosen few.

                        I never said van Gogh painted by numbers - just the opposite - you can learn to be pretty good by adopting the painting by numbers approach (ie mechanical golf swing) but you can't just choose to learn to be a one-in-10-million artistic genius like Seve and van Gogh. Their rarity rather supports this view wouldn't you say?

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                        • #13
                          Re: Seve Ballesteros

                          Originally posted by mariner View Post
                          Whoa, hang on - we do NOT all have artistic genius. It IS reserved for the chosen few.
                          A self-fulfilling prophecy.

                          You cannot measure artistic genius, so we all have it. If you want to be artistic about it, you can, whatever that may be to you. It's your own. It's an intangible quality that cannot be made into a statistic. It's unbound. Lack of constraint is what it needs, and most golfers play under barely repressed tension. Artistry barely registers on the radar.

                          So Seve in his prime is the perfect model both technically and spiritually/mentally. Emulate/learn a technique, but don't be bound by it. Learn from it and make it yours to play with how you see fit.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Seve Ballesteros

                            I agree with the bottom half of your post but not the top - "you cannot measure artistic genius, so we all have it" ???
                            Just because something is intangible and unquantifiable doesn't mean to say we all have it. How does that work?
                            Right, you can't measure it, you can't put a number on it, but we all know that he had it in spades as does any great artist by definition, but not everybody does or it would be commonplace and we would all be great musicians, artists etc.
                            You may argue that everybody has the potential, though I believe it is born in some people.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Seve Ballesteros

                              Originally posted by mariner View Post
                              Just because something is intangible and unquantifiable doesn't mean to say we all have it. How does that work?
                              Your very question is based in a world of quantifiables.

                              I say it because it's what I want to believe. And when I believe it, I play far beyond my paper-based analytical potential. At times, I choose to believe I am great. Therefore, at times, I am. It is inexplicable and intangible. But we all have the ability to choose. If you choose before your first tee shot that you are a superb golfer, and keep that cocky, nonchalant and free premise throughout the entire round, the boundaries are removed.

                              Anybody has the power to believe they are great, and when they truly believe it, they'll experience whatever they're doing at a higher level.

                              For me to believe that some people are just born with physical talents is to admit to myself that there are some things I will never be able to do. I'm learning that that's the quickest way to shut my own world down to everything that's comfortable. And hence, I achieve nothing when in that frame of mind.

                              OK, I'll never give birth. There are some things, I guess! But if I've got two arms, two legs, and the right frame of mind, there is no reason other than my own self-limitations that mean I could not play golf well below my prescribed handicap.

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