Re: My Putting - two ways to look at it....?

Hey Scraggs,

The thing that strikes me about your post is your attitude towards holing putts. It's clear that you putt your first putt to not miss your second.

If you putt to hole ALL putts, you'll hole more.

In my vocabulary there's no such thing as a "lag putt". Horrible. If you're not trying to hole it what are you trying to do? Miss it on purpose? Nobody ever shot low scores by trying to miss putts. You can try and miss it close, or you can try and make it. But you'll rarely make putts of 15ft+ if you're only trying to get it close. Which means that when you putt well, you'll two putt and when you putt poorly it'll be 3+.

It's the same with your chipping. Chip to hole it. You're close enough and have the tools to be able to chip in. If you don't try and chip in, you'll never chip in unless you get super-lucky.

Attempting to hole out should be the objective of every short game shot, unless you've made the mistake of leaving ones self so short-sided that just giving yourself a putt is the main objective. When you try and hole out, you'll hole out more and your misses will be more consistently closer, meaning more one putts for up and downs, and more one putts in regulation.

Forget the lag putt/chip. In my opinion, there's no such thing if you're trying to score.

I'll point towards your long game too. We all have shocking days with the long clubs. But it's your short game that pulls in a score. Short game can rescue the long game, but not if you don't try to put the ball in the hole.

The good thing is, that if your long putting was good enough to leave you no more than 16 inches, you have the touch to hole long putts. You just gotta aim at the hole instead!

Re: My Putting - two ways to look at it....?

Lag putting SUCKS.
You should be looking to make every putt.
I always look to finish at least a foot past the hole on every putt.
You'll be amazed how many times the hole gets in the way.............

Re: My Putting - two ways to look at it....?

hi Neil
while i agree with most of what you say about lagging puts, i feel there are time when lagging a putt is the safer way to go. if there is a really big break then you may want to lag it so you have a second uphill putt and going for the hole could leave you a very difficult second putt.
i think it comes down to judgment and course management.
cheers
Bill

Re: My Putting - two ways to look at it....?

Seldom, but true Bill.

Re: My Putting - two ways to look at it....?

First, the most useful way I've heard to 'look at' putting stats is to start looking at total putts less GIR's; as you should be having a 'low putts' day if you miss a lot of greens. If you aren't, then like you say you're not chipping or pitching well, either.

For the most part I agree with Neil in that you have to think that every putt is going in - even the 40 and 60 footers. Sure, stats say that the guys on Tour are only 50% from 10 feet (and it rapidly diminishes from there), but they still hole out long ones (and often, even from those distances, leave little work on the next putt).

But I get what Bill is saying. From 40 feet (even 20 feet) I'm just looking for a general break and am trying to feel the pace. I don't read the putt as long as if it were a 'makeable' 6, 8, or 10 footer - just get a sense of general direction and go. Now, if it falls, great, but if it doesn't, my pace should (like Scraggs) leave nothing difficult for the second.

All this said, at this point I'm working hard on trusting my brain to read the green. Pace cannot be determined if you don't have a line (for right or for wrong). And I find my most 'surprising' hole outs come when I haven't actively thought about all the little humps and bumps and stuff that can effect the ball.

Re: My Putting - two ways to look at it....?

Whilst no 3-putts in itself is good I've ,got to agree with Neil on this one.

Last time out I had close to double figures in second putts of a foot or less but I was peed off rather than pleased with the first putts.

With signs (thanks everyone) of my short game coming back, I beat bogey golf (just ) for the first time this year but, holing somewhere between 1/3 and 1/2 of the ones I left short would have smashed my PB.

Anyway back to your question, try breaking your stats down into PP GIR and PP Non-GIR.

I'd suggest that pros win dough by getting the first figure below 2.

Mere mortals on the other hand should work on their short game so that they average 1.5 putts on greens not in regulation. Can you work out what your round would have looked like if you's made the 2nd figure?

Re: My Putting - two ways to look at it....?

I can see Neil's view but it is an opinion biased towards the better player.

Lag putting is a tool to help prevent 3 putting by those that 3 putt a lot of holes. If a golfer tends to hit way past/way short/off line on longer putts then a good strategy is to lag the ball to a distance where the second putt has a good chance of success. Of course when the skill level is such that the putt has a good chance of being made then going for it is the right thing.

I agree with the precept that time will be well spent on improving pitching and chipping skills so that the chance of chipping in or leaving a one putt is improved.

I cannot offer much help with putting statistics as I dont normally record them, I just tend to focus on the shot in hand and have a feel for my performance. (I am not promoting this as a system though It's just the way I do it)

Re: My Putting - two ways to look at it....?

I'm not sure about the better player comment Brian, I certainly wouldn't put myself in that category, better putter maybe. I would argue though that virtually everyone has it in them to be a better putter whereas most club golfers will never get their 240 drive to the 300 mark.

Surely though (according to Pelz) even poor golfers should be putting to a foor or so beyond the hole not to a lag distance?

Re: My Putting - two ways to look at it....?

Robin,

I guess I meant 'the better putter' but that normally goes hand in hand with a 'better player'

My point is that if someone 3 putts a lot even when they are attempting to get the ball in the hole then their number one priority is to stop 3 putting. Pelz suggests the best way to address this is to work on lag putting within a 3 foot diameter, the ball can infact be past the hole when lagging the putt. He suggests that you putt to a speed that would carry the ball 13 inches past the hole with your 'make putt' as this will be the ideal velocity to drop the ball in the hole.

Some people never become good putters, they just dont have the feel or coordination for it, Just the same as driving. If you can hit a long drive once then you have the ability to do it again but maybe not the agility to make it repeatable.

Re: My Putting - two ways to look at it....?

The chicken, or the egg?

If someone's 3-putting a lot, they're not trying ot hole it. Three-putters don't three putt because it's physically difficult. They three putt because they talk themselves out of it. They can miss 1 footers, 2 footers and 3 footers as much as 20 footers. And if they're aiming for a 3 foot circle, they'll have even more 3 footers for their second putts to deal with, and miss, and so it goes on.

Can you regularly fly to London City Airport just by telling the pilot to land in somewhere in England?

The more specific the putt is, the better chance of success. It surprises me that someone as highly regarded as Pelz suggests the dustbin lid method of lagging. We're not trying to get the ball into a dustbin lid. The hole is much smaller than that! But I don't hold Pelz in any regard really, so maybe I'm being biased toward my own tendencies.

Putting isn't physically dificult. Far from it. Roll a ball along the floor. If you've ever tossed a set of keys right into someones hand, or successfully thrown a screwed up bit of paper into a bin 8 feet away, you can putt.

Those that three-putt when they're having a bad day, and two putt on a good day, make it far more complex than it needs to be.

Those that never become good putters never try to hole it.

Re: My Putting - two ways to look at it....?

I think you are being a little harsh Neil and with respect, letting your ability blind you to the problems others encounter

That said I stand by my assertion that since [OK I'm making these stats up ] only 1% of club, or pay & play, golfers either believe in their putting or practice it in any structured and consistent way (are these 2 things linked?), then its no wonder that "we" 3-putt. In my case I've gained 3-4 ppr since my practice regime changed (less putting) but I have reasons for that and for now its a price worth paying.

I'd also agree with you about Pelz, a snake oil salesman imo, which is why you find so much of his stuff second hand on ebay and amazon - unless of course those that have benefited from the books (charitable souls) merely want other, less able to pay full dollar, to benefit from the wisdom also.

Re: My Putting - two ways to look at it....?

I only mentioned Peltz Robin in reply to your reference to him and have no opinion on the recyclability of his works. I have read both of his books and found them very informative, based on extensive study and statistics. Anyhow this thread was not meant to be a Pelz debate.

Neil, I would suggest that putting is not a parallel to tossing a bunch of keys or rolling a ball along the floor, it is a golf skill that most players find difficult, in fact many top professional golfers have had problems with it, especially when the adrenalin is flowing. I honestly think you are seeing this only from a skillful golfers viewpoint when you suggest someone 3 putting is not trying to hole it, would not driving 300 yards mean you are not trying? Lag putting is a method to reduce 3 putting on longer putts, 20/30/40/50 ft putts not 3/6/8/10 footers where you would be trying to make the hole. If you have the skill to drop these in then go for it, if due to ones ability (or lack of it) you hit way short or past then do something about it, either become very good quickly (somehow) or lag it until you can do something better.

Robin is correct in his comment that most golfers do not spend enough time practising, most could improve somewhat by adopting a better putting routine. I notice that most of the very good golfers I know do practice their putting and have a sound repeatable putting action.

Re: My Putting - two ways to look at it....?

Hi guys
i feel i lag putt but i try and play to leave the ball 10 inches behind the cup.
before i went to my broomhandled putter i was very inconsistent.
i find that using the long putter i can put most of my first putts within 2 feet of the hole and i even make a few. i don't try and miss but there are times where i play for a spot on the green that will give me a certain second hole out.
on the links courses i play the greens have a lot more humps and hollows to them compared to most inland courses. i find when playing inland i go for the hole more due to the greens being flatter and easer to read.
i think if to take someone that has never played links golf the will find it hard to putt on the fast greens with so many humps on the greens.
take the 5th at the oldest course in the world (Musselburgh) it has a two tear green the top tear is a good ten feet higher than the lower green. if you have and up hill putt you really have to give it a belt. but if putting down hill you need to lag or you will run of the green.
i think you have to judge the green you play to see if it a go for the hole or a lag to give you a safe second. i do not have many 3 putts and it been a few rounds since i had one. (touch wood) i feel my judgment of gong for the put or lagging to a dust bin lid works. i agree with Neal that you should not lag all your puts and like Brian said most putts under 10 feet are go for the hole putts.
if you have a 10 foot put with a 3 foot break then playing on the safe side could save you a shot if you were to go for it and miss you could leave a tricky 3 or 4 foot breaking putt back.
putting is very personal and we all putt diffrent and look at the line diffrent and see the run and the pace of the ball differently. it not surprising that we have diffrent views as to the right way to putt. there not a right or wrong way only the way that works for you.
cheers
Bill

Re: My Putting - two ways to look at it....?

And on that, at least, I'm sure we can all agree.