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  • #1

    improving lie

    Hi,

    Today I competed in interclub match play and was penalized for "improving" the lie of my ball. What happened is this: My ball was 8 feet off the green and on good fairway. I decided to put to the hole. While I was waiting for others to hit I noticed that 4 feet in front of me but 2 feet to the right of my intended line to the flag, a ball had evidently plugged into the ground and had left a hole which had not been repaired. I reached over with my putter and tried to flatten the hole out. This hole was not in my way and would not have affected my path to the flag. My opponent penalized me.

    What is the rule that gave him this right?
    Tags: None
  • #2
    Re: improving lie

    13-2. Improving Lie, Area of Intended Stance or Swing, or Line of Play

    A player must not improve or allow to be improved:
    · the position or lie of his ball,
    · the area of his intended stance or swing,
    · his line of play or a reasonable extension of that line beyond the hole, or
    · the area in which he is to drop or place a ball,
    by any of the following actions:
    · pressing a club on the ground,
    · moving, bending or breaking anything growing or fixed (including immovable obstructions and objects defining out of bounds),
    · creating or eliminating irregularities of surface,
    · removing or pressing down sand, loose soil, replaced divots or other cut turf placed in position, or
    · removing dew, frost or water.


    Thats' from the USGA golf rules....however, the guy you were playing against is an idiot....if it didn't improve the path of your ball.

    Comment

    • #3
      Re: improving lie

      Thanks Canadian-Man-44.

      I guess this game is unfathomable at times and not helped by anal retentive folks who only succeed in making people feel uncomfortable.

      Trying to understand the rule as you have explained it leaves me to ask another question regarding sand. Can one remove sand splash from the green if it is in your line of approach?

      Comment

      • #4
        Re: improving lie

        Sorry, I guess I should have copied and pasted the exceptions to the rule. They are as follows.


        the player incurs no penalty if the action occurs:
        · in grounding the club lightly when addressing the ball,
        · in fairly taking his stance,
        · in making a stroke or the backward movement of his club for a stroke and the stroke is made,
        · in creating or eliminating irregularities of surface within the teeing ground (Rule 11-1) or in removing dew, frost or water from the teeing ground, or
        · on the putting green in removing sand and loose soil or in repairing damage (Rule 16-1).


        Looks like no one should have an issue with you removing sand on the putting green.


        Comment

        • #5
          Re: improving lie

          Sand is a loose impediment when on the green (not elsewhere) and may be removed without penalty.

          Comment

          • #6
            Re: improving lie

            on the putting green in removing sand and loose soil or in repairing damage (Rule 16-1).

            This explains that repairing a pitch mark on the putting green is allowed. The following is a copy of rule 16 1 - c:

            c. Repair of Hole Plugs, Ball Marks and Other Damage

            The player may repair an old hole plug or damage to the putting green caused
            by the impact of a ball, whether or not the player’s ball lies on the putting green
            . If a ball or ball-marker is accidentally moved in the process
            of the repair, the ball or ball-marker must be replaced.There is no penalty,
            provided the movement of the ball or ball-marker is directly attributable
            to the specific act of repairing an old
            hole plug or damage to the putting green
            caused by the impact of a ball. Otherwise, Rule 18 applies.
            Any other damage to the
            putting green must not be repaired if it might
            assist the player in his subsequent play of the hole.

            http://www.golfcaledon.com/public-go...-on-the-green/

            I suggest you take your playing partner to one side and inform him he is wrong. You should also understand that you cannot be penalised by another player in golf, you can only penalise your-self. The other player can only complain to the club committee if he/she thinks you have broken the rules, they should investigate and make a decision.
            Last edited by BrianW; 07-25-2009, 06:22 PM.

            Comment

            • #7
              Re: improving lie

              sdscouse

              Have a look a the Duffy Waldorf video below (third one down).

              http://www.usga.org/rules/utility_fi...ideo-Archives/

              Your opponent was probably using this as the basis of his 'ruling'. Most senior ROs that I know do not agree with the ruling.

              Incidentally, your opponent (I assume it was match play) cannot give you a penalty. He may make a claim which, if you don't agree, must be referred to the committee.

              Sorry. They seem to have removed the videos from the site
              Last edited by aaa; 07-25-2009, 10:00 PM. Reason: They seem to have removed the videos from the site

              Comment

              • #8
                Re: improving lie

                Thanks for the info guys. I learn something about this stupid game every day. Maybe that's why I love it despite some of the people I meet on the course.

                Pity about Waldorf's video. I would have liked to have seen it.

                Comment

                • #9
                  Re: improving lie

                  sd

                  Are you for the Reds or Blues ?

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    Re: improving lie

                    He could, of course, be a man of immense taste and discernment and support the Whites across the river. And, talking of footie and the Mersey, as a bit of trivia, which football ground is closest to the river?

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      Re: improving lie

                      South Liverpool ?

                      Comment

                      • #12
                        Re: improving lie

                        Don't think so, but to clarify I was referring to the 92 league clubs in the question - you are right though to suspect a trap......

                        Comment

                        • #13
                          Re: improving lie

                          Man U

                          Just found out South Liverpool is now a railway station !!
                          Last edited by aaa; 07-26-2009, 07:57 PM.

                          Comment

                          • #14
                            Re: improving lie

                            Originally posted by aaa View Post
                            sd

                            Are you for the Reds or Blues ?

                            I'm an ex-kopite exiled to san Diego

                            Comment

                            • #15
                              Re: improving lie

                              Originally posted by bdbl View Post
                              He could, of course, be a man of immense taste and discernment and support the Whites across the river. And, talking of footie and the Mersey, as a bit of trivia, which football ground is closest to the river?
                              Could it be Tranmere Rovers? Actually I think it must be Stockport as the river runs right around the back of the ground.
                              Last edited by BrianW; 07-27-2009, 06:34 PM.

                              Comment

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