Re: Shot Shaping

Seems to me using that method you would be pulling your fades and pushing your draws.

The attached video shows the conventional method of creating draws and fades:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QYAVw0I41k

Re: Shot Shaping

Brian

Re your comment about push draw and pull fade: you have hit it right on the head. For a right handed golfer, a draw should descend to where a straight shot would land and roll somewhat to the left, and vice versa for a fade. Unless of course you have a lot of backspin which I don't.

Yours,

Chuck

Re: Shot Shaping

I can see what the guy at the top is trying to say but most people watching this would completely misinterpret it. I could see a person trying to draw it and trying to hit the outside of the ball with an over the top move, hitting a pull. And the more a person tried to hit the outside of the ball with the club (if moving from a correct path) the closer they would hit to the heel.

Overall its good advice but can easily be misunderstood.

There are many many 'methods' to be able to shape a ball, but there are only a couple of LAWS.

IF THE CLUBFACE AND SWINGPATH ARE ALLIGNED THEN THE BALL WILL GO STRAIGHT, IF NOT THEN SPIN IS PRODUCED

there are some very small corrections to be made for the above theory but they are not worth mentioning here. So how the hell do you hit a draw and fade i hear you ask. Well here is how.

DRAW - get divot to the right of the target and clubface aiming left OF THE DIVOT

Fade - get divot to the left of the target and clubface aiming to the right OF THE DIVOT

Straight - Get divot aiming at the target and clubface aligned perfectly with it

The easy and observable part is the divot. Anyone can make a divot that aims left or right by conciously controlling the club or by aiming their entire body more left or right. The clubface is the hardest part and this is just down to experiemntation with the followng

• starting with the clubface aiming left or right (then taking your grip)
• rotating the hands more through impact(for draw) or less (for fade). note this is probably the hardest to control unless you have talented hands
• taking a stronger (3 knuckles on left hand = draw) or weaker (1 knuckle on left hand = fade) grip

I'll leave on an interesting note, in 2001-3 tiger woods played a fade by aiming his feet right - defies everything you will read in a book but after reading the above you can see how it is done.

Re: Shot Shaping



Hi Rogue
i find that swinging with my Trevino style swing to give me a fade i have to take a strong grip and there is no turning over of the wrists. if you take a week grip with a open stance and have a hips slid your wrists want to try and turn over and get to active.
if you are using your wrists to control the ball then i agree that the weaker grip works best but it is not as controlably as using the open stance and no wrist turn system.
you use the aim point of the swing line and the amount of angle of your stance to control the amount of fade.
with the wrist type swing it much harder to control just how much fade you get.
i could never control my draw when using my wrists to roll over. i did hit a draw and often it was a good draw but i could not bend the ball 5 feet or 20 feet at will like i can do hitting a fade.
with the draw you got what you ended up with.
with the fade i can bend the ball 10 feet to 30 feet at will and its controlable by my feet and my swing line and my hands never roll over till the ball is well on its way.
my swing line is always to the left of the target and by how much depends on how much i want to fade it.
a lot of people use the swing with there short irons to hit a high quick stopping ball.
cheers
Bill

Re: Shot Shaping

bill, thats right
just shows that there are so many ways to draw and fade it. I just went through some basics, bottom line is always the impact physics and different people will/can acheive it in different ways. Bottom line is always clubface relationship to divot and if you need to hit a draw divot must point right of target however you do it (could be standing in that direction or swinging in that direction).

And yeah some people like a strong grip and hold off, much like yourself. This can produce a very powerfull fade as technically you can hit a fade with a closed face (think Azinger or Duval). If your clubface aims 4 deg left of target at impact and swing path is 8 deg left then ball will fade. you obviously swing well left of target - but some good players do.

Lots of professionals stand in the same place, use the same grip and just change their swing through impact to change shot shape (cink does this). this is a very good way to do it as it helps keep the draw shot higher and softer, and minimises distance loss on the fade

It gets even more complex than that, but basics all come down to divo and clubface relationship to it

Re: Shot Shaping

Hi rogue
i think there are also two ways to swing to get the shot to shape and one is like i do with an open stance and not a lot of hip turn and more hip slid and trying to push your hands down the target line. ( the target line being where you want the ball to start.)
the other way has little hip sway and much more turn of the hips and you also turn over the wrists at impact.
both work well and are used by top pros and i think its finding what works for you like having a one plane or two plane swing. the parts don't mix and knowing what works and why is a big help in understanding you swing and how to shape a ball.
i belive it is so much easer to shape a ball than hit it straight.
it is easy to hit say a 7 iron to wedge straight due to backspin but say a 5 iron to a 1 iron then shaping is easer than hitting it with no side spin.
i have always been good with a one iron and still carry one and its my go-to club when i have a long tight shot and i hit the target most of the time. if i tried to hit it straight i would be lucky to hit 25% where i aimed, with the fade i never miss more than a few shots by more than 10 feet.
cheers
Bill

Re: Shot Shaping

The attached link is to an article I created some time ago that explains how I consider shot shaping:

http://www.golf-tuition-online.com/c...t-shaping.html

I hope it is of some help.

Re: Shot Shaping

hi Brian
looking at the diagram i would say my fade was more like the push-slice in the daigram.
i do hold of my wrist turn and do push through the target line but with my wide open stance i get a controled fade but think your diagram shows it is more a pushed-slice but open the stance and your right on line to the target.
if i tell people i hit a pushed-slice then no one will think i could hit a barn door with a 9 iron never mind a 1 iron but looking at the diagram you posted i think its explaned better there than i could ever put it in words.
but i think its more a pushed-fade than a pushed-slice???
thanks again
Bill

Re: Shot Shaping

Good stuff brian. love the diagram and string/weight analogy.

My only quarrell with modern taching is that we try to force the shaping with the view of lining our body up to where we want the divot to go. Although this is ideal, no one can ever really acheive this and most people fall into a category of left swingers and right swingers (due to innumerable factors).

Modern teaching dictates that we have to fight our natural forces and tendancies - whereas i prefer the view that you just have to line your divot to the ideal place, not the body (obviously there are more factors to consider).

an example of this would be a typical over the top guy. He needs to aim right to start the divot at the target (or wherever he wants the ball to start). Then he needs a stronger clubface than average - left swing + left clubface + right alignment = straight ball flight to target.

What do you think?

Re: Shot Shaping

hi rogue
i think you make a good point about teaching to line up with our feet "open" for a fade and "closed" for a draw but forget the plane of the arm, hands and club take and and it where it is lined up as to go where the ball starts out and not the line of your feet.
i have my feet very open about 35 drgrees with say a 5 iron but my swing plane is only about 5 degrees open to give me a fade of about 15 feet.
its the line my hands take at impact and where my club faces is, that had the biggest impact on the shape of my shot.
having a very open stance just helps me get the right swing path for my arms and that why i have to hit a push shot so my arms are moving away from my body through impact and a good foot after impact before lifting and rolling over. i can't let my wirsts roll or the ball would go miles left and thats why i need a strong grip
i know Brian plays in a very diffrent way from me and his used his hand lots more and his timing has to be better than mine, his hand roll over through impsct and he also does not sway his hips like i do but he still hits a great draw. he uses the 3sk system and it had worked very well for him. our swings are so diffrent but both work but we both understand why our swing works and what we are trying to do to get that shape of shot.
cheers
Bill

Re: Shot Shaping

sorry bill i think you misunderstood what i meant (or perhaps i didnt explain myself.

I agree wholly with what you are saying. I was saying that modern teachin TRIES to get us to line our bodies up to where the divot wants to go, but in reality there are more factors. Like you say about arm plane, hand tracks etc. Those are just some of the factors that can change it all.

Thats why i used the example of tiger lining up to the right to play a fade. Even though his body is lined up to the right his hand track and body synch was different as to actually get the divot to point left of target and hold face off.

Your way is just another method, a kind of block fade onto target, and for you aiming more left works. Sorry if i have confused. What i am getting at is there is no one way of doing it.

BOTTOM LINE< DIVOT AND CLUBFACE RELATION TO IT. howevere you acheive this is up to you (one leg, one arm, aim left aim right, tee in you ear etc). Thats the beauty of the game.

Re: Shot Shaping


Hi rogue
i was agreeing with what you said about teaching and how like you said they get you to line your feet but that don't line up your divot.
i do agree what you said

cheers
Bill